What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ladies?

[silverlake22]

But it's not like Worlds was a well skated event last year, kwanatic. Miki Ando had a massive fall in the SP that ruined her combo, so she got virtually nothing for the biggest point getter in the SP. And even then her PCS were quite close to Lepisto.

If we were to articulate it another way: in her two programs, Miki Ando landed seven fully rotated triples. Laura Lepisto, in her two programs, landed six.

This is true, and for me I wouldn't have as much of an issue with Laura winning bronze if she had had a stellar SP at Worlds last year. The thing is, she didn't, her 2a was a mess and I think her SP score should have been lower because of that even though she did do a nice 3t-3t and 3lo. Miki DID beat Laura handily in the FS skating in the penultimate group, so my issue was more that Miki got nailed super hard in the SP (not that i liked the program or thought it suited her well), while Laura earned a terrific score even though she botched one of her major elements pretty seriously. In all honesty I thought Phanuef maybe deserved bronze that year over either Laura or Miki, because she skated really well in BOTH programs.

I agree that Miki last season was not comparable to Miki this season, though. For one thing, her programs last season weren't great while this season, once she changed her SP, I felt both programs were really well suited to her and brought out the best in her skating. Also, last season she wasn't dominating, she was in the mix for sure, but kept being overshadowed by Yuna and then Mao and Joannie too later in the season. This season, she was the one to beat, as evidenced by her two wins over Mao at the two competitions where Mao actually did have her sh*t together, and then at Worlds when she beat Yuna, who gave flawed performances but certainly didn't bomb. I know she was 5th at the GPF but she was injured and the results among the top 5 were really close and she DID win the FS there, so apart from that competition, it was Miki domination all season. Last season was not like that, and tbh she seemed to lose steam as the season progressed, esp after the disappointing 5th at the Olympics, so by the time Worlds rolled around, she wasn't going to get preferential treatment from the judges, hence her 11th place SP.

[ImaginaryPogue]

I'm sorta of the opinion that no one deserved bronze, so it's really hard for me to get upset about Lepisto.

I've seen people say that Phaneuf should've had the medal, but spiral error aside (only level two, not four, and that would've been enough), she doesn't seem to have that extra something. I don't think her PCS should be that high - her performance/interpretation didn't strike me as that strong, nor did anything else. It was a clean skate and I'm glad she had it. Miki... you know what, I don't even remember her Worlds program at all.

Truthfully, I just pretend she earned the World bronze with her Olympic LP.

[Jtsmith12]

Mao is going to skate to "Liebestraum" next season

This is an article in “Sankei sports” in Japan.
Translated from Japanese.
As for the free skating, Mao is going to skate to "Liebestraum" next season, too.
June 21st, 2011 JST

By Kydo Press
In Jun 21st, former Worlds Champion Mao Asada revealed that, as for the free skating of next season, she skates to "Liebestraum" composed by Liszt as same as last season.
She explained the reason, saying 'I am not satisfied because I made "Liebestraum" finish while not doing my best performance, so I would like to perform the perfect one', because, in the worlds of April where she had aimed at the championship for two seasons running, she finished at the 6th place.
In Tokyo Metropolitan area, Asada attended the publicity meeting of the mattress which she is using.
She did not reveal the name of music of the new short program which uses a classic music, but she said "I would like to perform the leading character perfectly because it is the story of a queen".
In this day, I heard that she was coached by Nobuo Sato coach in early morning.
She fixed the eyes on next season, while saying, “I am reconsidering a skating and a jump. I would like to do the practice which I can feel to have become good every day even if it was only one thing per day”.

[Sylvia]

This is an article in “Sankei sports” in Japan.
Translated from Japanese.
As for the free skating, Mao is going to skate to "Liebestraum" next season, too.
June 21st, 2011 JST

By Kydo Press
In Jun 21st, former Worlds Champion Mao Asada revealed that, as for the free skating of next season, she skates to "Liebestraum" composed by Liszt as same as last season.
She explained the reason, saying 'I am not satisfied because I made "Liebestraum" finish while not doing my best performance, so I would like to perform the perfect one', because, in the worlds of April where she had aimed at the championship for two seasons running, she finished at the 6th place.
In Tokyo Metropolitan area, Asada attended the publicity meeting of the mattress which she is using.
She did not reveal the name of music of the new short program which uses a classic music, but she said "I would like to perform the leading character perfectly because it is the story of a queen".
In this day, I heard that she was coached by Nobuo Sato coach in early morning.
She fixed the eyes on next season, while saying, “I am reconsidering a skating and a jump. I would like to do the practice which I can feel to have become good every day even if it was only one thing per day”.

Translation credit goes to "Akira Andrea" at FSU - link: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...5&postcount=65

[Jtsmith12]

@Sylvia Yes Thank you

[Tinymavy15]

Mao is going to skate to "Liebestraum" next season

This is an article in “Sankei sports” in Japan.
Translated from Japanese.
As for the free skating, Mao is going to skate to "Liebestraum" next season, too.
June 21st, 2011 JST

By Kydo Press
In Jun 21st, former Worlds Champion Mao Asada revealed that, as for the free skating of next season, she skates to "Liebestraum" composed by Liszt as same as last season.
She explained the reason, saying 'I am not satisfied because I made "Liebestraum" finish while not doing my best performance, so I would like to perform the perfect one', because, in the worlds of April where she had aimed at the championship for two seasons running, she finished at the 6th place.
In Tokyo Metropolitan area, Asada attended the publicity meeting of the mattress which she is using.
She did not reveal the name of music of the new short program which uses a classic music, but she said "I would like to perform the leading character perfectly because it is the story of a queen".
In this day, I heard that she was coached by Nobuo Sato coach in early morning.
She fixed the eyes on next season, while saying, “I am reconsidering a skating and a jump. I would like to do the practice which I can feel to have become good every day even if it was only one thing per day”.

Glad she is keeping Libenstruam. It was a beautiful program.
My guess is she is skating to Turandot for the short.

[pangtongfan]

This is true, and for me I wouldn't have as much of an issue with Laura winning bronze if she had had a stellar SP at Worlds last year. The thing is, she didn't, her 2a was a mess and I think her SP score should have been lower because of that even though she did do a nice 3t-3t and 3lo. Miki DID beat Laura handily in the FS skating in the penultimate group, so my issue was more that Miki got nailed super hard in the SP (not that i liked the program or thought it suited her well), while Laura earned a terrific score even though she botched one of her major elements pretty seriously. In all honesty I thought Phanuef maybe deserved bronze that year over either Laura or Miki, because she skated really well in BOTH programs.

I agree that Miki last season was not comparable to Miki this season, though. For one thing, her programs last season weren't great while this season, once she changed her SP, I felt both programs were really well suited to her and brought out the best in her skating. Also, last season she wasn't dominating, she was in the mix for sure, but kept being overshadowed by Yuna and then Mao and Joannie too later in the season. This season, she was the one to beat, as evidenced by her two wins over Mao at the two competitions where Mao actually did have her sh*t together, and then at Worlds when she beat Yuna, who gave flawed performances but certainly didn't bomb. I know she was 5th at the GPF but she was injured and the results among the top 5 were really close and she DID win the FS there, so apart from that competition, it was Miki domination all season. Last season was not like that, and tbh she seemed to lose steam as the season progressed, esp after the disappointing 5th at the Olympics, so by the time Worlds rolled around, she wasn't going to get preferential treatment from the judges, hence her 11th place SP.

You are obviously a huge Miki Ando fan. Yu Na Kim from the Olympics would have beaten Ando by over 30 points at Worlds. Ando's success is much more related to the field than her. Herself is only 8% of at it at most. With the same skating she did this season her results would be basically the same last season including her 5th place in Vancouver.

Do you seriously think if you put Ando at her best up against Kim at her best that Ando would even be remotedly competitive. If so then a huge LOL to that. Kim at her best thrashes her in every area, ever her jumps get more GOE. Ando is lucky Kim skipped all the events until Worlds since it allowed her to build more reputation points and score alot higher than she normally would be allowed to for the same skating. Otherwise Kim would have won Worlds easily EVEN with how poorly she skated in both programs at Worlds.

[jaylee]

Miki has the dubious distinction of having won the LP in every single ISU competition she was in last season, without having once gotten the highest PCS in the field.

Cup of China and Cup of Russia ==> Lower PCS than Akiko Suzuki
Grand Prix Final ==> Lower PCS than Alissa Czisny and Carolina Kostner
Four Continents ==> Lower PCS than Mao Asada
Worlds ==> Lower PCS than Carolina Kostner and Yu-Na Kim

What does that tell me? That Miki did not dominate last season, and is certainly not unbeatable next season (if she does return, which is not confirmed).

I thought Mirai should've gotten higher PCS than Miki at 4CCs, and hopefully, if reports about Mirai upping her game technically are true, then she'll get it next season. Both Denis Ten and Daisuke Murakami have tweeted about Mirai doing triple axels. I hope she's also devoting time to getting her 3/3 consistent. Maybe Mirai is taking her skating to another level--if so, should be very exciting, especially in comparison to the bore that the ladies were last season.

[Krislite]

Miki has the dubious distinction of having won the LP in every single ISU competition she was in last season, without having once gotten the highest PCS in the field.

Cup of China and Cup of Russia ==> Lower PCS than Akiko Suzuki
Grand Prix Final ==> Lower PCS than Alissa Czisny and Carolina Kostner
Four Continents ==> Lower PCS than Mao Asada
Worlds ==> Lower PCS than Carolina Kostner and Yu-Na Kim

What does that tell me? That Miki did not dominate last season, and is certainly not unbeatable next season (if she does return, which is not confirmed).

I thought Mirai should've gotten higher PCS than Miki at 4CCs, and hopefully, if reports about Mirai upping her game technically are true, then she'll get it next season. Both Denis Ten and Daisuke Murakami have tweeted about Mirai doing triple axels. I hope she's also devoting time to getting her 3/3 consistent. Maybe Mirai is taking her skating to another level--if so, should be very exciting, especially in comparison to the bore that the ladies were last season.

Interesting observation--I never noticed that. It's still pretty obvious, though, that her PCS has increased a bit over last season. Surely if she continues to compete for a full season next year, she'll get even higher PCS now that she's a two-time world champion? Or will the judges forget about her if someone else takes the lead?

[pangtongfan]

How can Miki be unbeatable. Being unbeatable means you would win even if everyone did their best, which is clearly not the case with Miki. Yu Na Kim at her best would blow Miki away. Mao at her best would beat Miki too. And depending on the judging Mirai Nagasu at her best could and probably should beat Miki as well.

[silverlake22]

You are obviously a huge Miki Ando fan. Yu Na Kim from the Olympics would have beaten Ando by over 30 points at Worlds. Ando's success is much more related to the field than her. Herself is only 8% of at it at most. With the same skating she did this season her results would be basically the same last season including her 5th place in Vancouver.

Do you seriously think if you put Ando at her best up against Kim at her best that Ando would even be remotedly competitive. If so then a huge LOL to that. Kim at her best thrashes her in every area, ever her jumps get more GOE. Ando is lucky Kim skipped all the events until Worlds since it allowed her to build more reputation points and score alot higher than she normally would be allowed to for the same skating. Otherwise Kim would have won Worlds easily EVEN with how poorly she skated in both programs at Worlds.

I'm actually not. I am a fan of Miki, but also a fan of Yuna, and probably a bigger fan of Yuna. When Yuna skates her best, she is undoubtedly better than Miki (and pretty much everyone - as evidenced by her massive Olympic victory), but she rarely skates her best, and in 2007 and 2011 Yuna making characteristic errors was enough for Miki to beat her at Worlds. That is all I am saying, that Miki is competition to Yuna and capable of beating her as evidenced by results. I'm not saying Miki is a better skater than Yuna, I'm just saying her results are impressive given that both her world titles were won when two of the biggest phenoms in skating were competing at the same event. Of course, she won because she made fewer errors at both those competitions than either Mao or Yuna, but at the same time, I think it would be too harsh to say that Mao or Yuna bombed at either the 2007 or 2011 Worlds, which just proves my point that Miki is competition for skaters like Mao and Yuna. She can beat them even when they don't bomb, all that needs to happen is that she makes fewer mistakes than either of them do, and not even necessarily a lot fewer mistakes.

Also, Miki having lower PCS than other skaters doesn't change the fact that she won all but one competition she participated in this season, which I would consider domination. I mean, people consider Alissa Czisny's 10-11 season a "dream season" and her results were not nearly as good as Miki's, so idk. The facts are on the table..

[ImaginaryPogue]

silverlake, when Miki beat Kim in 2007, Kim had two falls and a combo discounted. Making 15 points worth of errors isn't bombing? She didn't bomb in 2011, but she wasn't on at all. So Miki beat Kim when Kim was error-ridden (how often does she get a combo discounted) or completely undertrained. golf claps.

Czisny had a great season, not for her results, but for what it showed about her skating. She demonstrated improvement in every area. It wasn't the placements (which were obviously quite strong for her) but the step forward.

The thing is, I don't see how she was THE ONE to beat. She had a huge victory (in terms of point spread) at CoC, but won worlds by just over a point. How is that dominating? I'm not sure about you, but the mess that was ladies skating had most of us thinking Kim would win if she showed up, that's how little an impact Miki seemed to have.

[pangtongfan]

Yu Na doesnt always skate clean but her performances at Worlds combined were her worst performances in a competition since 2006 Skate Canada. I would call that bombing. At the 2007 Worlds Yu Na fell on both her triple lutz attempts and had a combination of jumps discounted since she did misinterpreted the rules. I would call that bombing. As for Mao at the 2007 Worlds she lost atleast 8 points under the rules at the time for her popped combo in the short, then lost about another 7 points with a two footed landing and downgrade, and another two foot in the long. About 15 points worth of mistakes and still nearly beat Ando who skated IMO her real best performanes ever at the 2007 Worlds (definitely not at Worlds this year).

One thing I will say is medal count as determining greatness is overrated. The following post World War 11 skaters are proof of this:

Trixi Schuba- 2 Worlds titles, 2 World silvers, and Olympic Gold
Annett Poetzsch- 2 World titles, 2 World silvers, and Olympic Gold
Sjouke Dijkstra- 3 World titles, Olympic Gold, Olympic Silver
Jeanette Altwegg- World and Olympic Champion
Jill Trenary- 3 U.S titles, World Champion
Oksana Baiul- World and Olympic Champion
Dianne DeLeuww- World Champion, Olympic Silver medalist, 3 time World medalist, 2 time European Champion

Yet NONE of these skaters are considered great skaters by most people, even while they were competing. In fact people mostly laugh or roll their eyes when their names are brought up today. By contrast the following group has far less valuable medal hauls and are considered hands down greater skaters than the above group:

Janet Lynn- Olympic bronze, 2 non gold World medals
Midori Ito- Olympic silver, 1 World gold, 1 World silver
Lu Chen- 2 Olympic bronzes, 1 World title (5 overall world medals)
Debi Thomas- Olympic bronze, 1 World title (3 overall world medals)
Denise Biellmann- 1 World title, no other World or Olympic medals

and to a lesser degree:

Rosalyn Sumners- 1 Olympic silver, 1 World title (no other World or Olympic medals), 3 time U.S Champion
Caryn Kadavy- 1 World bronze
Yuka Sato- 1 World gold
Sasha Cohen- Olympic silver, 2 non gold world medals
Elaine Zayak- 1 World titles, 2 other world medals


Most consider Ito the greatest skater of her generation by a bit despite that the also highly respected and liked Yamaguchi's title haul easily trumps hers. Hardly anyone considers Henjie or Witt the best ever despite that they have the most medals or titles. Fratianne is considered the greatest skater of her generation despite Poetzsch's superior title haul. Hamill is a legend with only 1 World title to go with her Olympic Gold, while Lipinski and Bauil are much less so. Heck most people will tell you they consider Angela Nikidinov a superior skater to Sarah Hughes inspite of the gulf in their medal hauls.

Ando goes into the long list of skaters who wont ever be considered as great as their medal haul, even if she never wins another major medal this will be true. There are still a number of people with more medals than Ando who are considered even less great, and an even higher number of skaters with fewer medals who most would consider better skaters. Even if by some miracle she wins 9 World titles and 2 Olympic Golds she will never be greater than Kim or even Asada though unless she shows caliber of skating a good 40% or more better than she has ever so far.

[Spun Silver]

^ All this dumping on Miki is making me mad. Sure, best Mao and best Yu Na trump best Miki but when did we see best Mao and best Yu Na this season? PTfan seems to want to chop Miki down to nothing in a rather oddly obsessive way. Who is claiming Miki is as great as Midori, Janet Lynn, or Sasha Cohen? (A: Nobody.) But she had a great season and also, at her best, is a beautiful skater.

What I'd like to hear is whether Yu Na should really have beaten Miki on PCS in the SP at worlds. Yu Na was far from her best. Her flex-foot layback was painful to watch. Her jumps weren't on. But even so there was that magical fluidity in her movement and her line - I loved her towering Biellmann. Is that enough to outweigh Miki's perfect, expressive SP - one of the best performances she's ever given, IMO? It's hard for me to call. I would have given it to Miki.

[kwanatic]

Who is claiming Miki is as great as Midori, Janet Lynn, or Sasha Cohen?

By definition of titles, she's got Sasha beat...(2 world titles and 1 bronze to Sasha's 2 silvers and 1 bronze)...but that's neither here nor there...

I'd agree that Miki was the one to beat last season and she did dominate the competition, winning all but one. She dominated in the sense of winning; not dominated in the sense of blowing everyone out of the water. Either way, she only lost once last season. Her consistency was ridiculous, going clean at almost every event. Granted, she was against a somewhat depleted field with Yu-Na out all season and Mao going through her problems, but she went out and did her job, did it well and was rewarded for it.

Point is, Miki is always in the mix because she has big jumps and a lot of stamina which means she can do a lot of jumps. Her spins are decent, her footwork and edges are good. She lacks in areas in terms of aesthetics (though she made improvements this year), but she's a powerful skater which makes her stand out when she skates well. Miki's a decent skater, but she's a killer competitor and that's where she's able to gain the edge. When others make mistakes, she's able to cash in on them. I think both Yu-Na and Mao are better overall skaters than Miki, but Miki is a tough competitor...you can't count her out b/c she never counts herself out.