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Thread: What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ladies?

  1. #91
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    By definition of titles, she's got Sasha beat...(2 world titles and 1 bronze to Sasha's 2 silvers and 1 bronze)...but that's neither here nor there...

    :
    Miki and Sasha are an interesting comparison because they have such contrasting styles and both of these ladies skated a good part of their career in the shadow of another skater from their own federation

    At the Olympics Sasha finished 2 and 4th. Miki finished what, 5th and 16th?

    If Miki has an edge over Sasha at Worlds she does not have it on the biggest stage which is the Olympics.

    Both were good GP skaters. Miki has been a much more consistent jumper than Sasha but stylistically I would rather watch Sasha, if nothing else for the suspense she brought to her LP's.

    I am sure Miki fans see it differently and that's

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    What I'd like to hear is whether Yu Na should really have beaten Miki on PCS in the SP at worlds. Yu Na was far from her best. Her flex-foot layback was painful to watch. Her jumps weren't on. But even so there was that magical fluidity in her movement and her line - I loved her towering Biellmann. Is that enough to outweigh Miki's perfect, expressive SP - one of the best performances she's ever given, IMO? It's hard for me to call. I would have given it to Miki.
    I think the way Miki's SP was structured--all 3 jumps done back to back--hurt her PCS all around. The music is gorgeous, but the way she ticks off each jump immediately means the choreography is not balanced throughout, and that affects transitions/choreography/interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I'd agree that Miki was the one to beat last season and she did dominate the competition, winning all but one. She dominated in the sense of winning; not dominated in the sense of blowing everyone out of the water. Either way, she only lost once last season. Her consistency was ridiculous, going clean at almost every event. Granted, she was against a somewhat depleted field with Yu-Na out all season and Mao going through her problems, but she went out and did her job, did it well and was rewarded for it.
    I can't wrap my head around this idea of Miki "dominating" via wins this season when it is obvious that her wins depended on a higher amount of luck and more of her competitors making unexpected mistakes than other "dominant" skaters in the past. Miki didn't up her game technically; she never attempted a 3/3 in the LP, and didn't attempt a 2A/3T until the GPF (then she opted out of it at Worlds). It is easier to be consistent when you're not attempting any difficult jumping elements, and her layout was designed to get her extra points without extra risk, and at the expense of having a choreographically balanced program.

    I remember that the media put Michelle Kwan through heck for not attempting a 3F in the SP at 2000 Nationals, so she put it in at 2000 Worlds. Michelle was also continually asked about whether or not she'd do a 3/3 and whether or not she'd have a 2nd 3/3. Apparently standards are no longer the same, and we don't expect the leaders in ladies FS to be attempting the most difficult triples they can in the SP, or attempt a difficult combination at all in the FS, as long as they get the win.

    I don't equate Miki's win at Worlds this year with any of the ones from the 2007-2010 quad, including her own in 2007. I don't see Miki as ever having really been dominant, but I think she comes closer to that definition in 2006-2007 when she won only one GP and Worlds than this year because her 3/3 made her a more formidable challenger and she didn't have to require on competitor's mistakes as much to win (she still needed some, though). She was also pushing the envelope technically. Not so this year even if she ended up winning more. Interesting that Miki was less consistent in 2006-2007 (bombing at the GPF, some problems at 2006 TEB) with a much harder jumping layout. This year she was more consistent with an easier jumping layout. Personally, I prefer Miki in 2006-2007.

    Miki's a decent skater, but she's a killer competitor and that's where she's able to gain the edge. When others make mistakes, she's able to cash in on them. I think both Yu-Na and Mao are better overall skaters than Miki, but Miki is a tough competitor...you can't count her out b/c she never counts herself out.
    :P I didn't see "killer" competitiveness throughout this season--she was nervous and very iffy during her Worlds 2011 LP, hence her bailing out on her one difficult combination. It was significantly inferior to her 4CCs LP. Miki went into the 2010 GPF as the top qualifier, and then immediately blew her chance at a medal (the GPF has never been good to Miki; even her 2009 silver medal there could've been better had she pushed it in the LP instead of skating tentatively). I think her results became better this season because she watered down her LP layout to maximize the points with minimal effort this season, and lucked out that skaters who had more challenging layouts made large enough errors for her to get the win. But that doesn't make her a better mental competitor...in my eyes.

    Miki tends to skate better when the pressure is not on her. She wasn't the favorite at 2007 Worlds, 2009, or 2010. I give her credit for 2011 4CCs where she did skate well, but at the same time, she had momentum from having defeated Mao at Japan Nationals. But then at Worlds, that confidence wasn't there in the LP.

    She definitely has come a long way from the skater who just gave up at the 2006 Olympics. Actually, I was angry on Miki's behalf with Dick Button for his scathing remarks during her 2006 Olympics LP, and I applauded her comeback the next season in which she upped her game technically and made improvements artistically. I respected her win at 2007 Worlds even though I don't rewatch her performances. I just don't feel that way about her win at Worlds this season. Frontloaded SP, backloaded LP, no 3/3--is this really the direction that ladies figure skating should be headed? Oof.

    Miki's had a great career and she should be proud of her accomplishments, but the standard she set this season can certainly be surpassed and going back to the topic, I hope some of the other ladies do next season. Like Mirai, Adelina, and Elizaveta. I eagerly look forward to how Adelina and Elizaveta will do and if they'll take their skating to another level when they debut on the senior GP.

  3. #93

    Burtu

    ***? I do not believe

  4. #94
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    It really does seem to boil down to semantics (silverlake used dream season with Czisny as if it meant the same thing as dominant).

    Back to the future!

    Doesnt it seem like next season is truly wide open? In all other events, it seems like the battle for top spot will focus on two or three individuals/teams, but not in ladies. I can think of a half dozen ladies (Ando, Czisny, Kostner, Asada, Kim, Nagasu) I expect to battle for the podium, and that's not forgetting Leonova/Marakova/Murakami/Lepisto who can compete with two clean programs.

  5. #95
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    It really does seem to boil down to semantics (silverlake used dream season with Czisny as if it meant the same thing as dominant).

    Back to the future!

    Doesnt it seem like next season is truly wide open? In all other events, it seems like the battle for top spot will focus on two or three individuals/teams, but not in ladies. I can think of a half dozen ladies (Ando, Czisny, Kostner, Asada, Kim, Nagasu) I expect to battle for the podium, and that's not forgetting Leonova/Marakova/Murakami/Lepisto who can compete with two clean programs.
    I agree and as far as the GP events go let's not forget Adelina and Liza or Kiira, Rachael and others.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    ... Doesnt it seem like next season is truly wide open? In all other events, it seems like the battle for top spot will focus on two or three individuals/teams, but not in ladies. I can think of a half dozen ladies (Ando, Czisny, Kostner, Asada, Kim, Nagasu) I expect to battle for the podium, and that's not forgetting Leonova/Marakova/Murakami/Lepisto who can compete with two clean programs.
    For the first time in a few years, I'm truly excited about the ladies discipline (always love to watch them, but haven't been "into them" much lately with like 2-3 exceptions); but your are right, it does seem so wide open next year, and i can't wait to see who steps up, what they skate to, how well, and so forth.

  7. #97
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    I think Miki has improved a lot but, like I said, she's doesn't beat the top skaters if they skate their best. Still, she beat everyone...margin doesn't matter. When you look at it, Miki was tough to beat last season; regardless of how everyone else skated, she held it together and won. Give credit where credit is due...she had a good year. That doesn't mean she's the superior skater, that just means she was in a groove competitively last year and was able to replicate her clean performances multiple times in a row and that led to wins.

    Taking an easier route was the smarter thing to do last season where no one tried a 3-3 harder than a toe-toe. Miki played the system and won...just as Carolina did. Simple as that. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it. An easier layout executed cleanly is better than a harder layout with mistakes...sometimes (see P. Chiddy's splatacular GP win for the exception). Miki and Carolina took advantage of Yu-Na's absence and Mao's slump by going the easy route and it paid off. Now, had Yu-Na been competing and if Mao was back in form, chances are that number of wins would be significantly reduced...BUT they weren't there and not in form, and Miki capitalized on that, skated cleanly and walked away with five of six gold medals last season.

    Of course, none of that will matter next season b/c the Russian Babies are coming in, armed with an array of 3-3s and 2-3s. Playing the easy route won't be an option next season b/c these girls are tough. Reputation can carry skaters a bit of the way, but they will need the tech content to back it up. So Miki, Mirai, Rachael and all of these others who are rumored to have a 3-3 better work hard this summer...

    In October, the new generation arrives to shake things up... I can't wait!
    Last edited by kwanatic; 06-23-2011 at 08:04 AM.

  8. #98
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    If history is telling in any way, it is clear that every cycle (Olympic) there are skaters who were so-called Babies (regardless of nationality) who emerge to become top contenders at the senior level "just-in-time" for the Olympics. Will be exciting to watch the progress of the many Russian ladies. Will also be oddly thrilling to hear about all the inevitable back (stabbing) stories as the struggle for those top positions unfolds in the coming 2-3 years. There's obviously a lot of incentive money being thrown around, but they all won't make it, and inequities in the distribution of money are inevitable.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    ^ All this dumping on Miki is making me mad. Sure, best Mao and best Yu Na trump best Miki but when did we see best Mao and best Yu Na this season? PTfan seems to want to chop Miki down to nothing in a rather oddly obsessive way. Who is claiming Miki is as great as Midori, Janet Lynn, or Sasha Cohen? (A: Nobody.) But she had a great season and also, at her best, is a beautiful skater.

    What I'd like to hear is whether Yu Na should really have beaten Miki on PCS in the SP at worlds. Yu Na was far from her best. Her flex-foot layback was painful to watch. Her jumps weren't on. But even so there was that magical fluidity in her movement and her line - I loved her towering Biellmann. Is that enough to outweigh Miki's perfect, expressive SP - one of the best performances she's ever given, IMO? It's hard for me to call. I would have given it to Miki.
    ITA. And when I say dominating, I mean in the sense of WINNING, she won all but one competition in which she was entered in last season, and still won the FS at the one competition she didn't win. It doesn't matter that she wasn't pushing the envelope technically or winning by huge margins, she was a roll, and was the one to beat, and I consider that domination. I could see how some might not see it that way.

    Also, I see a double standard here, because I don't see people saying Alissa's good results this season were just due to the field being depleted, but everyone seems to think that was the case for Miki. I actually think having the majority of ladies attempting fairly simple content this past season allowed them to focus more on the artistic side of their skating, and I for one will personally say I saw great development in these areas for Alissa, Carolina, and Miki. I mean, Miki's SP brought out a whole new, really expressive, side of her, Carolina's FS was exquisite, and Alissa's FS brought her elegance to the new level. Further, skaters like Alissa, Carolina, Mao, etc are beautiful and incredibly talented, so I don't get how people consider Miki "mediocre" or whatever considering she beat all of them at least once this season. You have to give credit where credit is due.

    Also, regarding Yuna "bombing" at the 07 Worlds, her SP was fantastic and makes up a little for her FS, which though error-ridden still scored a respectable 114, just about 5 points lower than what she scored for her FS at TEB and the GPF earlier that season where she managed to win gold. For these reasons, I don't consider Yuna's performance at Worlds that year "bombing".
    Last edited by silverlake22; 06-22-2011 at 08:34 PM.

  10. #100
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    1. All results last season were due to the depleted field, make no mistake.

    2. If you're gonna say even when she lost, she on the LP, than you might as well point out that even when she won, she lost the SP (CoR, Worlds). You might as well point out that she not only lost the one event, she came in fifth (of a field of 6th, and the only one she beat was Flatt at her worst). I really don't see how narrowly winning implies domination. Honestly.

    3. But even if we believe otherwise (re: the depleted field), it's because of the following: Alissa improved technically. She improved artistically. So while her good results were the consequence of a lesser field, I feel entirely confident that the Alissa of 2010/11 would do better than the Alissa of 2008/09, 09/10. Miki lessened the technical content. While I was hugely impressed with her SP (I really do think it was beautiful), I (when I eventually saw it) was largely nonplussed by her LP, artistically or athletically.

    4. It does seem we really differ on the semantics of the whole thing, though.

  11. #101
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    According to this article, Miki Ando will skip the GPS because of 'lack of preparation'. (Sorry if this is posted somewhere else.)

    http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/new...001092760.html

    She seems to be in Japan now.

  12. #102
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Here's the GP assignments

    Skate America
    LEPISTÖ
    Gedevanishvili
    Kostner
    Machei
    Imai
    Makarova
    Helgesson
    Czisny
    Caroline Zhang
    TBD USA

    Skate Canada
    Amelie Lacoste
    Cynthia Phaneuf
    TBD Canada
    Hecken
    Suzuki
    Leonova
    Tuktamisheva
    Flatt
    Nagasu
    Wagner

    Cup of China
    Geng
    Kexin Zhang
    TBD China
    Kostner
    Marchei
    Kanako Murakami
    Makarova
    Sotnikova
    Gao
    Nagasu

    NHK
    Phaneuf
    Korpi
    Meite
    Gedevanishvili
    Mao Asada
    Suzuki
    TBD Japan
    Leonova
    Wagner
    Zawadzki

    TEB
    LEPISTÖ
    Silete
    TBD France
    TBD France
    Hecken
    Kostner
    Kanako Murakami
    Tuktamisheva
    Viktoria Helgesson
    Alissa Czisny

    Cup of Russia
    Amelie Lacoste
    Kiira Korpi
    Mao Asada
    Imai
    Biryukova
    Leonova
    Sotnikova
    Flatt
    Gao
    Zawadzki

  13. #103
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Tuktamisheva is against Mirai and Kanako, I dont know who to root for now!

  14. #104
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    So Caroline did get one. I hope she has a good summer of training and does well.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    I remember that the media put Michelle Kwan through heck for not attempting a 3F in the SP at 2000 Nationals, so she put it in at 2000 Worlds. Michelle was also continually asked about whether or not she'd do a 3/3 and whether or not she'd have a 2nd 3/3. Apparently standards are no longer the same, and we don't expect the leaders in ladies FS to be attempting the most difficult triples they can in the SP, or attempt a difficult combination at all in the FS, as long as they get the win.
    You have to remember, under the old 6.0 system, you couldn't build up a "lead" in the short program. If you blew the competition out of the water in the short, then somebody narrowly, BARELY, edges you out in the long, you get a silver. ( Michelle might know know something about that. ) Now if that happens under the IJS, you win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    So Caroline did get one. I hope she has a good summer of training and does well.
    Yes, I hope she really makes a come-back.

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