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Thread: 'ICE' ISU Open Pro-Am series planned for 2012 (Scott Hamilton's brainchild)

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This leaves eligibles Chan, Kozuka, Takahashi and Joubert, and recently retired Lysacek, Plushenko (?) and Lambiel. Any six from that group (or Buttle) would make a strong competition, IMHO. I think Chan would win easily unless they “modify” the CoP to take away his point-getting advantages. If they give more weight to, as they put it,

    Exciting, fan-friendly performances featuring contemporary music.

    that would give crowd-pleasers like Lambiel and Takahashi an edge.
    Chan's recent choices of programs seem to favor light lighted exhibition reflective of his fun personality and dramatic point maximizing LP, if his new LP is indeed as leaked/rumoured, and I'm curious if he will debut a new show program this summer. It is possible he is interested in participating in the pro-am competition even as he starts his college courses this fall, by not doing the third GP and too many shows. Then he and Nichol may just start doing "fan-friendly perfroemances featuring contemporary music" to be used in both regular and pro-am competitions. Similarly, other medalist/top skaters may start adopting such music to facilitate participation in the pro-am.

    Perhaps this is how ISU is trying to affect the music selection of regular competitions without a direct decree, hoping for TV revival via star power and popular appeal.

  2. #47
    take off the oven mitts
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    mathman wrote
    <<The same skaters will then fly to the next continent and do a different routine the following week. Then in the finals, it is just the top two from each discipline (so they each probably have to do two routines.) The whole thing is over in three weeks.>>

    fly to another continent to compete against the same people again? this looks like it is its own GP. i don't see how a competitor could commit to the usual GP series with its 2, 3, maybe 4 events and ALSO do this series. this would only be an option for a competitor sitting out the whole season except maybe 4cc and worlds, IMO.

    how many different programs will be performed? i remember the grand slam and rider pro-am where skaters used to skate the same program again in different rounds of the competition.
    Last edited by skfan; 06-12-2011 at 02:36 PM.

  3. #48
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Does anybody have an idea of what the rules will be like for this thing? Because if you're talking about eligibles vs. ineligibles, it's a no brainer who's going to win these. Most pro skaters don't do anything harder than 2a, 3t or 3s. Eligibles will probably be doing 3-3s, quads and everything else under the sun. I'm trying to figure out how this is going to work...

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Does anybody have an idea of what the rules will be like for this thing?
    No. As stated in the ISU Communication excerpted in the first post of this thread:
    "Further details and the Announcement shall be released as soon as the specific ICE proposal has been received and approved."

  5. #50
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skfan View Post
    fly to another continent to compete against the same people again? this looks like it is its own GP. i don't see how a competitor could commit to the usual GP series with its 2, 3, maybe 4 events and ALSO do this series. this would only be an option for a competitor sitting out the whole season except maybe 4cc and worlds, IMO.

    how many different programs will be performed? i remember the grand slam and rider pro-am where skaters used to skate the same program again in different rounds of the competition.
    From the few one-line clues that have been published, I think the plan is to wrap the whole thing up in three weeks, probably in early October before the start of the Grand Prix. You could have a competition Oct. 1st in Paris, fly everyone to Los Angeles for Oct. 7, then take zip off to Tokyo on the 14th. Skaters would do one routine in Paris, a different routine in New York, then the top two in each discipline would do the same two routines in the finals in Tokyo. (Just guessing here, but that would be consistent with everything that has been announced so far.)

    Assuming that the organizers already have adverstising feelers out and television deals in the works, how much would they have to pay the skaters to make it worth their while? Maybe $100,000 each, or somewhere in that ballpark?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic[/quote
    Does anybody have an idea of what the rules will be like for this thing? Because if you're talking about eligibles vs. ineligibles, it's a no brainer who's going to win these. Most pro skaters don't do anything harder than 2a, 3t or 3s. Eligibles will probably be doing 3-3s, quads and everything else under the sun. I'm trying to figure out how this is going to work...
    More guessing. Let's say the men are eligibles Kozuka, Takahashi and Joubert, and the pros are Lysacek, Weir and Lambiel (two from each continent). Lambiel can still do a quad combination, Lysacek does triple Axels in his show routine, Weir probably still has a solid triple Lutz combination if noi a triple Axel.

    If I were doing it I would simply shorten the program to three-and-a-half minutes (better for the music anyway), and limit the jumping passes to four instead of eight.

  6. #51
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    It's incredible how some fans are actually thinking this competition is going to be all about the most prominent retirees and top active skaters. I suppose it's fun to guess who the entrants will be while we don't even know much about the makeup of this fantasy competition. Da plane boss, da plane. Which has-been will win this magical competition that will soon be forgotten unless someone beats Kwan?

  7. #52
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Which has-been will win this magical competition...?
    I predict Lambiel.

    Edited to add: Ladies prediction: Arakawa, Rochette, Cohen, Kim, Kostner, Lepisto.

    Winner: Arakawa.

    Dance winner: Delobel and Schoenfelder.

    Pairs winner: Shen and Zhao.

    Edited to add: Oops. That doesn'r allow North America to win anything. I will change my prediction in men to Lysacek.

    Also, I changed my mind and will replace Weir with Buttle in the men's field.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-13-2011 at 05:30 PM.

  8. #53
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Eligible skaters can only compete under COP comps sanctioned by the ISU if they want to maintain their eligibility, right? If so, I don't see how any pro-am can possibly work without it being completely tilted in favor of eligible skaters. Never mind that there are plenty of high profile pro skaters who never competed under the COP (or did horribly, like Michelle Kwan), even recently retired skaters who competed under the COP may find it a bit much. The COP demands complexity and precision in every part of skating to do well. Would Shizuka really want her jump combos to get picked apart by UR-calls? Would she really want to hire the proper expert to make sure her spins achieve the proper levels under the current COP (where the level requirements are different enough to make Shizuka's older programs outdated)?

    Even for someone as successful under the COP as Shizuka was, this is a lot of work and money for one series of competitions. It'd be even worse for skaters who didn't compete under the COP, or who tried and did horribly. They'd be putting in a lot of work only to get picked apart and lose horribly.

  9. #54
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I predict Lambiel.

    ... I will change my prediction in men to Lysacek.

    You should add an emotiocon in gs that holds a bat, can be useful at times...

    Do they want this thing to gain more fans or not???You missed the note from Vancouver.

  10. #55
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business
    Eligible skaters can only compete under COP comps sanctioned by the ISU if they want to maintain their eligibility, right? If so, I don't see how any pro-am can possibly work without it being completely tilted in favor of eligible skaters...
    In my humble opinion, it's all about the Benjamins. If the Dustin/Goldwater/Hamilton collaboration can show Mr. Cinquanta the money, in terms of sponsorship and television contracts, the other details can be worked out.

    The wording on the ICE self-promotion blurb (down at the bottom where it says how wonderful this will be for the ISU):

    (This event will expand) the ISU’s presence in sports through the development and introduction of a “high-profile event,” using a modified ISU scoring and judging system.
    How modified is modified?

  11. #56
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    You should add an emotiocon in gs that holds a bat, can be useful at times...

    Do they want this thing to gain more fans or not??? You missed the note from Vancouver.
    Well, I was trying to let the U.S. win something. OK, I will go back to Lambiel, and then Belbin and Agosto can win in dance.

    (But Delobel and Schoenfelder rock. )

  12. #57
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    Also, I changed my mind and will replace Weir with Buttle in the men's field.[/QUOTE from Mathman]

    nooooooooooo! We must have Weir!

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Eligible skaters can only compete under COP comps sanctioned by the ISU if they want to maintain their eligibility, right?
    They can only compete in comps sanctioned by the ISU if they want to maintain their eligibility.

    It's up to the ISU to decide whether they want to sanction any comps that use a different scoring system from that used in regular eligible competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The wording on the ICE self-promotion blurb (down at the bottom where it says how wonderful this will be for the ISU):

    (This event will expand) the ISU’s presence in sports through the development and introduction of a “high-profile event,” using a modified ISU scoring and judging system.
    How modified is modified?
    Minimal modification:
    The actual judging and calling process will be the same as in eligible competition, but the programs will be subject to different rules than either short or long programs. E.g., there may be a wider range to the time limit; lower and/or more flexible maximums on the numbers of each kind of elements; no requirement to include any jump combination or some axel-type jump or a flying spin or combo spin; vocal music might be allowed; etc.

    Moderate modification:
    All or most of the above but there will also be some modifications of the judging and calling. For example, all spins and steps might get called as level 1 or "choreo" elements; component marks may be combined into two or three scores instead of five.

    Major modification:
    Some kind of hybrid between the IJS and the old 6.0 system, the details of which I won't speculate about because I'd surely guess wrong.

    I have no idea what their plans are, but I'm curious to find out.

  14. #59
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    One of the bullets on the ICE "About Us" page speaks of

    Innovative and interactive presentation of elements and scores for television and live audience.
    I am not 100% sure what this means, but I hope it is something like, "now here is a triple Lutz. See the outside edge in slo-motion? If the skater does it right it is a big point getter, 6 points. But if she slips over on the wrong edge, that is a deduction in GOE. Let's watch for it now as 2006 Olympic Gold Medalist Shizuka Arakawa takes the ice to the strains of Hip-Hop Mama" (Or Turandot.)

    "Look at this slo-motion replay of Patrixk Chan's rendition of Happy Feet. This will give him a huge score in the Transitions Component. Let's see how the judges scored it!"

    I think they could in fact do a very minimal modification of CoP scoring and still make it fair. If it is free skating only (as suggested in the ISU Communication), then they would not have to worry about Short Program requirements like a jump combination. An Axel requirement would not cause any harm -- do a triple if you can, otherwise a double.

    I agree with eliminating the levels for spins and footwork and allowing the judges to use GOE to reward the wow factor on these elemetns. Cut down the jumping passes to four for men and three for ladies, and shorten the program to the length of a typical popular song. (Four-and-a-half minutes exceeds my attention span anyway. )

    So here is the test. Would Sasha Cohen have a chance to beat Yu-na Kim in such a format? Suppose Yu-na did 3Lz+3T, 3F and 2A and Sasha did 3S, 3S+2T and 2A. Sasha starts to pick up ground with her I-spin and fan spiral. The five program component scores come in (no need to modify that part)...

  15. #60
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, I was trying to let the U.S. win something. OK, I will go back to Lambiel, and then Belbin and Agosto can win in dance.

    (But Delobel and Schoenfelder rock. )
    Yes but you dont touch Lambiel!
    Belbin Agosto sounds a great choice Del Schoes also Maybe a double gold ceremony?

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