U.S. Figure Skating reprimands, fines Rachael Flatt

^ I don't think the USFSA is afraid of Hersh, but rather that they depend on him to write about figure skating in the U.S. and to disseminate information that the Association wants to put before the public. I do note, however, that all of Hersh's bogs start out, "In response to the latest email that I sent..." rather than "The President of the USFSA informed me..." or "Frank Carroll took me aside...."

I don't really mind it. If figure skating is a sport, like basketball is a sport, then Rachael Flatt is going to be treated in the press like Lebron James (except that Rachael has not yet been banned from the city of Cleveland.)

It all depends on Rachael. If she cares as little about what folks say about her as Lebron does, then no harm, no foul.

I think Golden Skate should take up a collection to pay Rachael's fine. :yes:

I've mainly been posting in the FSU version of this thread, but I have to say- out of all the posts here, Hernando's hits the point best (and he/she and I have had strong disagreements on many things, believe me).

Come on guys. USFS requires that all its athletes disclose any injuries to them before the Worlds. Team Flatt did not do so, and waited until they were actually AT Worlds to say anything. They violated the agreement, and thus the appropriate action was taken. Now we have to wait to see what will happen to Tom Z.

I don't get all this pitying of Flatt. She and her team made a BAD decision, now they have to suffer the consequences. Simple. I can't feel sorry for someone who had a part in this stupid decision to compete crippled at worlds. And before you get on me saying it's in her right to go, it's not just about the team here- she could have seriously hurt herself. She's lucky her leg didn't snap out there because THAT would have been just awful.

And why would they announce her punishment before Tom Z's so that she has to take the heat by herself?

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Perhaps they should have waited until they came up with Tom Z's punishment and announced both, but- Flatt also had a hand in the decision-making process, so she deserves some of the heat as well.

Team Flatt didn't follow the rules- and now they are getting what's coming to them.

R.D. said:

[Rachael] and her team made a BAD decision, now they have to suffer the consequences. Simple.

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True.

Its just that, try as I might, I can't seem to work myself up to the level of indignation that this case is smoking with.

Mathman - In case you haven't noticed Basketball is a team sport of players working together to win a game. Solo Figure Skating is about an individual alone on the ice trying to win a contest. Each sport has its own rules and regulations. They just are not comparable.

Should Kwan when she was leaving out tech items affecting her hips should she have told the USFS of her medical problems?

I get the feeling that when a skater skates with an injury, it's ok if she does well but otherwise she must tell the USFS.

R.D. said:

Team Flatt didn't follow the rules- and now they are getting what's coming to them.

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Had team Flatt followed the rules, Rachael would still get to compete (like Ryan did in 2010) No one else would get to go anyway.
Then what? Same result, same sad queens stomping their feet.
So all this talk about following the rules is just technicality.

Not sure what "sad queens" you are talking about. Enlighten me.

LOL people are talking about Frank Carroll skaters when all of them love talking about their injuries and it seems to be some kind of tool for them. Like with Kwan and Lysacek it always excused them not doing the hardest jumps so I feel they could be graded on a curve of "that was so great for an injured person!!!"

gmyers said:

LOL people are talking about Frank Carroll skaters when all of them love talking about their injuries and it seems to be some kind of tool for them. Like with Kwan and Lysacek it always excused them not doing the hardest jumps so I feel they could be graded on a curve of "that was so great for an injured person!!!"

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That same theory doesn't work when you put Tim Goebel into the picture... Carroll's most injured skater IIRC... but then Carroll fired him so it's all good.

blue dog said:

But she didn't find out about the injury until the Friday before, right? She probably had a lot of pain, and Tom just told her to skate through it. He probably told her the pain is from being tired, and it having been a long season. Then they find out that it's a stress fracture. That wouldn't have been enough time, in my opinion, to get Mirai to Moscow with a visa. Alissa would've ended up being the only skater from the US in the ladies, and then what?

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I'm not arguing that she should or shouldn't have skated.

Mathman, you're correct, it's not your job to justify or condemn anyone's conduct. But I'd hope that someone such as yourself, who claims to take the POV of the athlete would be able to make the following points.

a) The athlete recieves funding from an organization.
b) Attached to that funding are stipulations/conditions that the recipient agrees to fulfill.
c) Flatt did not.

Because it's Flatt, and because the third spot was on the line, once again, there's been a bit of an internet pile-on, and I have to admit the rush to demonize her has left a sour taste in my mouth (especially because I don't think it was entirely her decision, that's how much the Tom Z/Josh Ferris thing pissed me off). But I don't think that the US Federation is out of line here.

I've been reading these posts carefully and wondering if I should add my two cents or not.
After much consideration, here's what I think:

I think the reprimand would have been enough. Rachael hasn't done anything against the rules before (or even came close), so why should be losing valuable training money. (Of course it could be just $100 or something, but still every cent counts). In fact, I bet she doesn't need a fine to feel bad. Without talking to her, I think it's safe to say that she know what she did was wrong and she feels bad for it. I hope she comes out with some kind of statement.

Also I think people are attacking the Rachael a bit much. Not surprising considering the amount of hatred she has received historically. I can't help but wonder if it was Mirai or someone who was well-regarded if this sort of back and forth would occur or all this demonizing would occur.

In any case, the good that does come out of this is that every skate, liked or not, will make the effort to monitor and communicate injuries much better.

ImaginaryPogue said:

b) Attached to that funding are stipulations/conditions that the recipient agrees to fulfill.

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Ever since this news came out I have been trying to find out exactly what these stipulations/conditions entail. I have searched the USFSA site and the USFSA rule book in vain. I have also asked some people who ought to know. But all I have for my effort so far are vague guesses and opinions.

I think I could give a more intelligent response if you could point me toward the actual rule or the wording of the contract.

For instance, who is it who decides that a skater has incurred an injury that is likely to result in her inability to perform and thus ought to be reported to the USFSA? Is it the skater who makes this judgment call? What medical evidence triggers the skater's obligation to report, and who decides whether the body of evidence is sufficient to bring the reporting clause into play? Is it the USFSA after the fact? Is it Rachael's legal advisors?

Actually, though, I guess I am not really so interested in all that after all. Rachael tried to push herself through an injury. It didn't work out. She paid a fine. The end.

Mathman, does Hersh answer your every demand or was this wording in his blog not sufficient for you:

The rule Flatt violated is contained in the USFS competition readiness agreement skaters sign.
It says, in part:

I, the skater, agree to adhere to my seasonal plan and to develop and maintain a level of health and fitness that will enable me to train at a high level and compete in peak condition. In the event that I become injured and/or ill to the extent that I require surgery and/or ongoing medical treatment, and/or is otherwise unable to train consistently, effectively, and according to the seasonal plan, and which may therefore jeopardize my ability to compete for Team USA, I agree to communicate the situation with U.S. Figure Skating’s Director of Sports Sciences & Medicine and/or Senior Director of Athlete High Performance.

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http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...-fines-rachael-flatt-20110615,0,960284.column

I'm wondering why this hasn't been posted yet. This is from the Hersh story and contains the reason Rachael was fined:

The rule Flatt violated is contained in the USFS competition readiness agreement skaters sign.
It says, in part:

I, the skater, agree to adhere to my seasonal plan and to develop and maintain a level of health and fitness that will enable me to train at a high level and compete in peak condition. In the event that I become injured and/or ill to the extent that I require surgery and/or ongoing medical treatment, and/or is otherwise unable to train consistently, effectively, and according to the seasonal plan, and which may therefore jeopardize my ability to compete for Team USA, I agree to communicate the situation with U.S. Figure Skating’s Director of Sports Sciences & Medicine and/or Senior Director of Athlete High Performance.

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I don't get the over-sympathy for Rachael. She didn't disclose her injury to US officials until after the fact and that's in direct violation of the agreement she signed, therefore she's been reprimanded and fined.:thumbsup:

Trying to compare skaters like Evan or Michelle who compete with while injured doesn't stack up to Rachael's situation. Mainly b/c, even with the injury they were still able to perform at a high level. It probably wasn't their absolute best, but they still walked away with a respectable finish if not a medal. If Rachael had performed better, this probably wouldn't be an issue. Rachael and Tom Z gambled and she ended up tanking. Pointing to her injury as the reason for her sub-par performance is where she hung herself...

Frank Carroll is US figure skating royalty. He gave us Michelle Kwan, coached Evan to Olympic gold and is currently attempting to whip Mirai into shape. What Franky wants, Franky gets. So if he saw fit to b*tch about this, you better believe the USFSA has no choice but to listen. More than that, he's right. Rachael and her team's decision not to disclose the injury was highly unprofessional in addition to be against the contract she signed. As the alternate, Mirai had a right to know that she may have been called to Russia to replace Rachael. That common courtesy should have been observed. Methinks Team Rachael kept mum on the injury b/c of what may have resulted. If given a choice between an iffy Rachael with a broken leg and a healthy Mirai who scores very well internationally, it's very likely the USFSA may have sent Mirai in Rachael's place. What other reason was there for keeping it a secret other than fear that she'd be removed from the team?

Frank takes the selection of alternate seriously, so there's no doubt that Mirai would have been ready to go if need be. The fact that Rachael knew a full week in advance that she had that fracture means that Mirai would have had enough time to get to Russia in time for the competition. In terms of Frank's assertion that this cost us 3 spots...ITA. Mirai was peaking. She was brilliant at 4CC and very well could have replicated that performance in Russia. Then again, maybe not...BUT even Mirai's disaster of a LP last year would have placed her high enough to earn that third spot. Mirai's worst is still much better than Rachael's worst.:sheesh:

I agree with reprimand and fine for Rachael. She's an adult, a young adult, but she knew what she was doing; therefore, she deserves whatever punishment her actions have incurred. She was in breach of a contract she signed and she has to face the consequences. Plain and simple. But I agree with the assessment that Tom Z should be in hotter water than Rachael. As a coach, he should be looking out for her best interests, not allowing her to risk her health and possibly her future in the sport by competing, especially when there's a healthy (and in all honesty much better) option waiting in the wings. He should be ashamed and I hope they hammer his @$$ for this...I hate that guy...

Hopefully this incident will wake the USFSA up. People talk about the Japanese and Russian skating federations, sometimes accusing them of being too involved. I think this debacle proves that the USFSA isn't involved enough. That they had absolutely no clue of this injury until Rachael spilled the beans is ridiculously embarrassing for them and it makes them look like they have no control over or interest in the skaters representing the country.:disapp:

Thank you Spun Silver and Kwaniac! I don't know why I missed that. (Sorry if my previous post seemed "demanding" to you, SS. Imaginary Pogue is a lawyer, I believe, and I felt like I was being cross examined. )

So now I repeat my position. If Rachael felt that her medical condition might "therefore jeopardize [her] ability to compete for Team USA" as for instance, in the case of a condition that, in Rachael's opinion might turn out to be so severe

that I become injured and/or ill to the extent that I require surgery and/or ongoing medical treatment, and/or is otherwise unable to train consistently, effectively, and according to the seasonal plan,

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then she should have told the USFSA medical team.

If on the other hand she believed that she could fight through the injury and compete as she had planned and trained for, and that it would not require surgery or extensive medical treatment until after the event, ..., well, then maybe she should have told them anyway, just to be on the safe side.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what Rachael thought about it. The USFSA said she was wrong and they hold the cards, so Rachael pays the fine and takes the reprimand. Frank Carroll gets to do his crotchety old man dance, Phil Hersh coaxes a story out of it, the USFSA looks only a little bit foolish, Rachael promises not to do it again.

Is it October yet?

gmyers said:

LOL people are talking about Frank Carroll skaters when all of them love talking about their injuries and it seems to be some kind of tool for them. Like with Kwan and Lysacek it always excused them not doing the hardest jumps so I feel they could be graded on a curve of "that was so great for an injured person!!!"

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At least Kwan and her camp had the class to let officials know she was injured and withdrew when she knew she couldn't do her best. She also withdrew in time to give the alternate, Emily Hughs, a chance to compete at the Olympics. It looks like the Flatt camp wasn't concerned with how it would affect the alternate or the possible 3 spots for the US. Ultimately, it's both the athlete and the coach who are responsible.

R.D. said:

I don't get all this pitying of Flatt. She and her team made a BAD decision, now they have to suffer the consequences. Simple.

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I agree with this completely. It's clear from Hersh's article that yes, Rachel broke USFSA rules by keeping her injury secret. Therefore, she should suffer the consequences, including being fined and reprimanded.

The USFSA has provided funding for Rachel's training for many years. And I'll bet they pay many of her competition expenses. In return, she has a clear duty to the federation to follow the rules and perform to the best of her ability at every event she enters. If she cannot perform well at an event due to injury, then her duty is to inform the federation so they can send another skater. She failed in this duty.

Some have tried to excuse Rachel on account of her youth. However, she is over 18 and an adult, therefore responsible for her actions.

There's no guarantee Mirai would have done well enough to get that third spot. However, with Rachel there, we didn't even have a chance. At least with Mirai, we would have had a chance.

Mathman said:

Thank you Spun Silver and Kwaniac! I don't know why I missed that. (Sorry if my previous post seemed "demanding" to you, SS. Imaginary Pogue is a lawyer, I believe, and I felt like I was being cross examined. )

So now I repeat my position. If Rachael felt that her medical condition might "therefore jeopardize [her] ability to compete for Team USA" as for instance, in the case of a condition that, in Rachael's opinion might turn out to be so severe



then she should have told the USFSA medical team.

If on the other hand she believed that she could fight through the injury and compete as she had planned and trained for, and that it would not require surgery or extensive medical treatment until after the event, ..., well, then maybe she should have told them anyway, just to be on the safe side.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what Rachael thought about it. The USFSA said she was wrong and they hold the cards, so Rachael pays the fine and takes the reprimand. Frank Carroll gets to do his crotchety old man dance, Phil Hersh coaxes a story out of it, the USFSA looks only a little bit foolish, Rachael promises not to do it again.

Is it October yet?

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It's all those "and/or" connectives that make it confusing for the layman. A pox on all lawyers!

But a plain and/or careful reading of the statement, in relation to Rachel's case, boils down to this: unless some sports law litigator tells me different, I feel comfortable assuming that Rachael's injury fulfilled the "ongoing medical treatment" clause, and therefore should have been reported under the agreement (the wording doesn't specify "extensive", but rather "ongoing" ).

On the other hand, I do get the impression, based on how the situation was handled, that the USFA intended their action to be a slap on the wrist and primarily symbolic, pour encourager les autres, as it were, and they mean this to be the end of it. I actually don't believe that the USFA has a deeper agenda to signal Rachael to retire or anything like that, but I'm an optimist this way, and for some reason still generally believe that people are generally fair-minded.

Maybe I'm a simple-minded newb for not recognizing an obvious conspiracy, but I intend to continue thinking, absent any more compelling facts, that Rachael's future treatment at the hands of the USFA will continue to depend on her performance relative to others.

An article from the San Diego Tribune-Union with quotes from John Baldwn.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jun/16/knocked-flatt-skating-through-pain/

^^thanks for the link

Mathman said:

Thank you Spun Silver and Kwaniac! I don't know why I missed that.

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That's because Hersh only added the link (and excerpt from USFS' 2010-11 Competition Readiness Agreement) to his article yesterday after he likely found it posted on FSU.