And, of course, making more money by eliminating Figures was also a big FACTOR. Figures were eliminated before the CoP. Remember Tara and Michelle?Originally Posted by Mathman
(Oh, these CoP defenders)
And, of course, making more money by eliminating Figures was also a big FACTOR. Figures were eliminated before the CoP. Remember Tara and Michelle?
(Oh, these CoP defenders)
I don't think factored placements make much sense in the IJS.
Back when there was a competition consisting of figures, a technical program and a freeskate it was an interesting question.
Looking at skating today, with the SP and LP basically separated primarily by duration just adding up the points seems to make sense.
This is ISU's best idea of what the public wants but it feels as if they are living in the past. Their use of technolgy feels dated as they haven't even figured out a way to let the fans know how these point total scores have been arrived at.
Sorry, but the vast majority of people who might tune in to watch a skating competition have no interest in searching the internet the next day to see the breakdown of the scoring. Even announcers, who get blamed for the diminsihed interest are not given the information quickly enough to explain it to the fans.
I doubt if that is an accident and it feels like just another attempt by ISU to keep the fans in the dark (and to cover themselves).
Once a score is posted there is no reaon why announcers don't have it right in front of them, and not just the point totals but the breakdown by judges (even if they are anonymous, why can't Scot let us know judge #3 really hammered a skater, or judge#4 marked a skater higher than the rest.
Why should casual fans get interested in a system that remains so secretive and is a mystery to them?
The history of the sport is full of politics and cheating and it really hasn't changed. That is not my opinion but ISU's own confession and even their declarative statement about the reasons for anonymous judging.
Some posters think skating has been cleaned up but ISU admits that nothing has changed. A system that was introduced due to a scandal and is designed to ty and keep cheating to a minimum and most importantly to prevent getting caught again is as strange as it's supporters who IMO know very little about sports and why fans care for a sport.
The CoP has made this clear and a system based on secrecy might catch on is less open society's but never in USA.
Will the day come when we will see soccer referees wearing masks so fans don't know their identity?
Will we ever see basebal when the balls and strikes are kept anonymous and fans will just have to assume a batter walking back to dugout must have been called out on strikes?
How about NFL football where penalties are called but not explained to the fans. Maybe like skating, fans will just have to assume or guess that a team was offsides or maybe there was a holding call.
If that ever happens football fans will go the way of skating fans and simply watch something else.
Some have said times change to justify the lack of interest in skating but we certainly see othe sports BOOMING. These are sports that are open and let the fans in on the decision making as it happens. There is no screcy or holding back information.
Would NFL football be better if fans had to go online the next day to see what penalties were called
Last edited by janetfan; 07-09-2011 at 08:26 AM.
^^^^
The bottom line is that the CoP can not quantify the execution of the elements. Who's to say that a particular 3A deserves a GoE of 2 or 3? Judges are human and can vary so there is no definitive score by adding GoEs. Skater X's 3A had 2 arms up; skater Y had l arm up and skater Z did the impossible by holding his hands on his hips. The arm placements are gimmicks and have nothing to do with definition of a particular jump. (They should be remembered in the Skating Skills of the PC scores)
Subtracting GoEs from the execution of the elements are necessary when the element fails to accede to the strict definition of an element. Diving, and other solo sports demand exacting elements. With Tennis and Golf scoring, there is no such thing as attempts with partial credit. That would make these other sports "sissy" sports, like oh, that lutz is much too difficult for that cute little girl, she should get some credit for the attempt. There is no credit for attempts in other solo sports that I know of nor in Team Sports.
There is no quantitative scoring in the PC scores. They are all like the 6.0 systerm, and opinions. The Pagaent Like System of scoring is based on Consensus.
Hernando's remarks about the secrecy of judging in scoring is true. For those fans who went to LIVE competitions knew the nationalities of the judges and exactly where they were sitting. When the scores went up, a fan knew which judged gave such a score. Nowadays, one wonders if the judges have the power of their convictions.
I agree. I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other about factored placements.
It was kind dramatic, though, when factored placements led to a situation where a skater needed help from her opponent to beat a third opponent, like 2000 Worlds where Michelle squeaked out a victory over Butyrskaya, thanks to Slutskaya's free skate.
I guess it depends on whether we see the short program and the long program as the first half and the second half of a single game, or whether we have in mind the model of the semifinals, then the finals.
One thing I was sorry to see go, however, was the "6.0 brand." Even outside pf figure skating, if you did something extraordinarily well, someone might say, "I'll give you a 6.0 for that!"
This gave the sport a little bit of free advertising.
Name the skaters with that kind of 'Brand".One thing I was sorry to see go, however, was the "6.0 brand." Even outside pf figure skating, if you did something extraordinarily well, someone might say, "I'll give you a 6.0 for that!"
This gave the sport a little bit of free advertising.
In CoP, the first Throw Quad was negated because P/T with their3rd GP, threw the awarding Pairs off the podium. The CoP lovers turn a deaf ear to anything negative about the CoP.
It wasn't negated. The team that did it is credited with doing it (Vise/Trent). Nor was their finish negated - they ranked fourth.
That said, how is this negative about COP?
Michelle Kwan, Alexei Yagudin, and Torvill and Dean.
We know that. It's not news. Why are you implying that the CoP was not wrong to permit P&T to have a 3rd GP. If P/T didn't get a 3rd GP, Vise/Trent would have won a bronze medal. You've obviously never skated competititively where competitive skaters have dreams of medals. I didn't think you swallowed the CoP's exceptions for some skaters.
The Pairs coming up this GP series will again push someone away from a bronze medal, so I assume you are ok with that.
Well that's an OPINION and all within the time of when you discovered figure stating. I think a better way to say it, would be using the term "reputation".
There is a subdued factor in scoring on reputation. Not necessarily for winning medals.
If it's wrong to allow some skaters to do three GPs and not others -- I'm not taking a position on that question -- then the blame lies with the rules governing the GP entries.
It has nothing to do with the scoring system.
Seeded skaters were allowed three GPs for all of the time that the GP existed under 6.0 scoring, during 2003-04 when the IJS was used only at Nebelhorn and the GP, and during 2004-05 when it was adopted for all international events.
Then the GP selection rules changed at a different time and for different reasons than the scoring system changed. And now that particular rule has changed back again.
Let's not forget the scoring system will change again but will it be because the sport is evolving or as I suspect due to pressure from a federation throwing alot of money at the hounds who run ISU?
Last season we saw it and don't be surprised if leading into Sochi we see changes based on pressure from the next Olympic hosts.
Three double axels indeed. If a certain skater didn't have such a great 2A that was milking the system and making if difficult for another federations Ladies to compete against her that rule would not have been changed.
Believe it or not, I can be as idealistic as the next person. But I am not blind or incapable of free thoughts and don't get why a few CoP fanatics support the system and ISU like it is a blood relative. :sheesh:
It's about politics and money and as long as cheaters are running ISU the sport won't change. It feels to me those who defend it also support politics and cheating in sport or are simply too naive to accept what at times is obvious.
For starters, wouldn't it feel more FAIR if rule changes were put in a year ahead of time giving skaters a full season to adapt to new changes?
Or would that negate the purpose of certain rule changes. After all, if a federation is throwing enough money at ISU should they have to wait a full season for new rules to take effect?
Money talks and ISU always have their greasy hands out.
Last edited by janetfan; 07-10-2011 at 09:18 AM.
school figures
short program
factored placements
6.0 vs. IJS
anonymous judging
reputation judging
politics
branding
Grand Prix selection rules
well-balanced program rules
timing of how soon new rules are implemented after being enacted
Lots of topics have been mentioned in this thread. All are worthy of discussion on their own merits. Most are ISU rules that have changed over the course of the decades. Some are fan and media perceptions that may reflect unwritten ISU practices and reasons for their rule changes.
The ISU makes a lot of decisions over the years and often changes its collective mind several years later. We're each going to like some of the changes and dislike others.
Of course thread topics drift. But it's kind of hard to have a meaningful discussion when issues that have nothing to do with each other are conflated. Why not debate each one on its own merits? I see no purpose in attributing rules that have nothing to do with the judging or scoring system to "the CoP" or "CoP supporters."
Facts:
Michelle Kwan received 57 6.0's in major competitions over her career.
Alexei Yagudin received more 6.0s (19) in major international competition than any other male skater in history, including 10 at the 2002 Olympics.
Torvill and Dean are renowned for receiving a record 12 6.0's for their performance of Bolero at the 1984 Olympics, including straight 6.0s in the second mark from every judge.
These skaters carry the banner for the 6.0 brand name.
I, for one, am sorry to see it go.
Last edited by Mathman; 07-10-2011 at 10:19 AM.
I think that what you are against is cheating, politics, and assorted skulduggery in sports. Everyone is against cheating, politics, and skulduggery in sports.
Supporters of code of points scoring are against these things. Supporters of judging by ordinal placements are against these things. Innovators who propose other methods of adjudicating competitions are against these things.
You are fighting valorously, but no one on this board is fighting against you.
Against illogic the gods themselves contend in vain.Why not debate each one on its own merits? I see no purpose in attributing rules that have nothing to do with the judging or scoring system to "the CoP" or "CoP supporters."
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks