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Thread: Japan Open

  1. #196
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    I like Patrick Chan's improved body movement, more fluid and softer, more impressive and better attention to details. he's really dancing now. But I don't like the music cut.

    Akkiko Suzuki skated better than last season too. More control and refined, but still maintained the passion. Good for her! I start to like her now. Great program.

    Joannie is great! To skate like that without serious training (presumably) is really something. She could still give it a run for any event and could medal easily, still the best current female skater in Canada.

  2. #197
    Custom Title periperi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    He is not - take that back! Plushenko has way more charisma.

    ETA: and far better jump technique.
    Ditto! And this is coming from a not so much of a Plushenko fan.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I can't argue with any of what you wrote... obviously we don't see eye to eye on some things, but I certainly understand your views and preferences. Whatever people are seeing in Chan's skating, I just don't see, and at this point I doubt that will change. He is a very strong technician, but to me his skating is never more than the sum of its parts; no magic. But then, magic is not quantifiable or objective, and can hardly be marked as such. Still, I do feel that even on the more objective criteria, he is sometimes overmarked. And that, at least, is something that can be discussed and debated.

    I thought the Amodio-Joubert hug was much cuter than the Amodio-Morozov one... Morozov, BTW, is vastly entertaining to watch at the boards during his skaters' programs; I don't think any coach comes close. I do think he cares about them, or at least some of them - but there is the taste issue.

    Speaking of Joubert, he has been telling the French media that he's probably going to be staying in competitive skating until Sochi, though he might not do GPs.
    1. If Joubert wins CoC, I definitely see him scaling back his GPs.

    2. I tend to agree re: Chan overmarked in some components. And I'd actually argue that goes back to my point that scores tend to be pegged to the highest component (which in his case would be SS). I have to admit I don't agree with those who think he's automatically dismissable outside that, though.

    3. The Joubert-Amodio hug was indeed cute, and Joubert deserves a tonne of credit for that. He knew he wouldn't win, he knew what a big moment this was for Amodio, and avoided hurting his back. But the affection between Amodio and Morosov got to me, I won't deny.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Chan's skating...to me...is never more than the sum of its parts.
    Those whose skating are more than the sum of its parts deserve more points in agreement with its added value. Most of Jeffrey's past performance should have fallen into that category.
    I would argue that Chan's added value is less than Jeffrey's, but I would not go so far as to say "never more than the sum of its parts". I am not an expert of the scoring system and I am too lazy to find out. I automatically assume that scoring for presentation or choreography takes more than the "added value" into consideration. So after all factors considered, Chan's choreography or presentation score could come out higher than Jeffrey's and his other competitors' despite his lesser emotional impact or connection.

  5. #200
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    I was thoroughly impressed by Jeffrey Buttle and Joannie Rochette in this JO. Guess there are reasons why they are invited every year. Their exquisite performances also got me thinking about why they were so good and their advantages over the others, the currently competing stars.

    Jeff has retired for about 3 years now and Joannie has not competed since 2010 Olympics. They have been doing show skating however. When competing, a skater needs to win on the total of his/her TES and PCS, preferably getting high scores on both TE and PC but sometimes s/he may have to choose one to excel in and sacrifice a little of the other, e.g. cutting down transition to land the quad or doing fabulous footwork to made up for lack of highest value jumps. Another set of considerations to make would be to win hearts or win the competition, which requires a high scoring program with lots of difficult elements to focus on. Preferably a skater can do both but when the chips are down, it's more important to win over the judges and the system. After all, it's a competition and one is there to win or place as high as possible. As well, millions of hearts are unpredictable and it's impossible to win all of them. And when a skater wins or places high, s/he gets to skate in the gala, a special feature of figure skating competition. That's when the skater needs to care only about winning hearts, not scoring. In other words, it's about the performance, not highly technical stuff to score points. After all, it's a show. Show skaters focus on performance and entertainment value, without the competition pressure. Many of the greatest skaters so beloved by fans actually become the artist they are in their show skating career after retiring from competition. A prime example is Kurt Browning.

    Back to Jeff and Joannie. They have not left their competitive careers for too long. At JO, they skated old seasoned programs enhanced with the additional artistry honed from their professional show experiences, and scored the high PCS to make up for a bit of TES slack. Ergo, beautiful and expressive performances to show down the still competing skaters who just went through a rather stressful delayed WC and a short summer of little rest, and were putting out brand new raw programs for the new season not yet under way.

  6. #201
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    1. If Joubert wins CoC, I definitely see him scaling back his GPs.

    2. I tend to agree re: Chan overmarked in some components. And I'd actually argue that goes back to my point that scores tend to be pegged to the highest component (which in his case would be SS). I have to admit I don't agree with those who think he's automatically dismissable outside that, though.
    I thought the PCS cluster around skating skills? It may not be official policy, but it's always seemed that way. Re Chan, I think he's strong on the technical components (SS/TR) and weaker on the performance ones (IN/P&E). He has tried to improve on that end, but - and I'm repeating myself - I don't think he can really make a change in that regard so long as he remains with Nichol. He needs someone who can bring out something new out of him.

    BTW, Joubert is not keeping either of last year's programs; I understand that he's said something along the lines that at his age and at this stage of his career, he'll do what he likes and feels comfortable with.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Those whose skating are more than the sum of its parts deserve more points in agreement with its added value. Most of Jeffrey's past performance should have fallen into that category.
    How do you quantify "more than the sum of its parts", though? It is so subjective, more than any of the existing components and marks. Some people will disagree with me about Chan's skating being the sum of it's parts and no more. I'm sure a lot of people feel Joubert's skating is less than the sum of its parts (they're wrong, of course ). Michelle Kwan is a classic case of more than the sum of its parts... except I never felt that magic others did when they saw her. And so on.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    gala...That's when the skater needs to care only about winning hearts, not scoring. In other words, it's about the performance, not highly technical stuff to score points.
    Speaking of gala, none of Chan's exhibition programs has impressed me, as if without scoring he suddenly faded into the background. That certainly says something about his skating.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 10-06-2011 at 05:44 AM.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    BTW, Joubert is not keeping either of last year's programs; I understand that he's said something along the lines that at his age and at this stage of his career, he'll do what he likes and feels comfortable with.
    Yes, rumour has it he's going back to "The Matrix" for his music choice. Which would make it the fourth season he's skated to it in a competition, fwiw.

  9. #204
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Yes, rumour has it he's going back to "The Matrix" for his music choice. Which would make it the fourth season he's skated to it in a competition, fwiw.
    Actually, I knew that when I posted this morning... it's not a rumor, and has been reported in several French media sources. I figured I'd wait for it to be really official before reporting it, though.

    I can write a longer post detailing how I feel about this (the short version: ambivalent) but it would be very OT. So I will just point out that you are incorrect; Joubert has used The Matrix only six times in international competition, as far as I can tell (2003 GP - three events; 2004 Euros and Worlds; 2006 Worlds). His 2009 mid-season replacement program was not the original Matrix soundtrack or the original Matrix program. It's a common mistake, due, I would imagine, to the way The Matrix LP is so identified with Joubert and such a signature program for him.

    I hope that there will be some changes made to the original choreography - I imagine it will be necessary, considering all changes to the system since 2006.

  10. #205
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    I figured that, but I did say fourth time he's skated to "The Matrix" and even though the replacement program was from the sequel, I don't think my comment was incorrect (semantics, perhaps).

  11. #206
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I figured that, but I did say fourth time he's skated to "The Matrix" and even though the replacement program was from the sequel, I don't think my comment was incorrect (semantics, perhaps).
    No, come on, IP - it's not just semantics, it's different music and different programs. The 2009 LP (used for Euros, Worlds, and the WTT - he had LotM earlier in the season) was The Matrix Reloaded and Requiem for a Dream, neither of which is Clubbed to Death, and it didn't resemble the original Matrix LP. I mean, if he'd decided to skate to, say, Beethoven's 5th symphony, would you say it's two interchangeable programs? (my apologies to Ludwig for the comparison; really). So yes, you can say that The Matrix is already a multi-season program, but considering it was only skated once in 2006, it's not like bringing back something that he had for two full years, such as the Metallica LP or Rise. I would have had a tough time defending a third season of Rise.

    A longer version of my thoughts, but still brief: 1. The Matrix is not what I'd have chosen by any means 2. looking at how he's been marked these last few seasons, it's exactly what the judging has been pushing him to do 3. it's what he likes and he's entering his 11th senior season, so I figure he's earned the right to do what he wants . 4. I still would have picked better music.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Koz skated well for this time of year but, in contrast to Chan, I feel a disconnection betwen the music and his skating, even though he followed the general tempo.
    That was how I feel. Chan expressed the music using his body, though there are plenty rooms to improve his movements. But there were several brilliant parts in his program already showing, such as the opening, the death drop, the hands movements at 3'33", and the footwork during the climax of the music near the end. Kozuka was, just like how I felt for his last year's LP, skating with the music in the background, or skating along the music but there were some parts in this music that needed not to make many body movements (that would be killed by CoP if a skater does that). Something that only heart could feel and move, not body. Also, especially in the first half, a sudden stretch of an arm on a weaker beat of the music instead of a strong beat. Then smooth down on a strong beat. They were on the beats, yes. However, the movements oddly stepped out of the music. In some part, when he jumped, he jumped out of the music too. For the dance part, the music was lively and beautiful. But that kind of music probably only Lambiel's skill could match it up. All in all, I agree that either he should change the music or, at least, he should redo the choreography. Personally, I'd change the music. But I believe that's something Kozuka won't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Yes, rumour has it he's going back to "The Matrix" for his music choice. Which would make it the fourth season he's skated to it in a competition, fwiw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Actually, I knew that when I posted this morning... it's not a rumor, and has been reported in several French media sources. I figured I'd wait for it to be really official before reporting it, though.
    Oh, no, oh, no, oh, no, oh, No!!!
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-06-2011 at 11:26 PM.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    No, come on, IP - it's not just semantics, it's different music and different programs. The 2009 LP (used for Euros, Worlds, and the WTT - he had LotM earlier in the season) was The Matrix Reloaded and Requiem for a Dream, neither of which is Clubbed to Death, and it didn't resemble the original Matrix LP. I mean, if he'd decided to skate to, say, Beethoven's 5th symphony, would you say it's two interchangeable programs? (my apologies to Ludwig for the comparison; really). So yes, you can say that The Matrix is already a multi-season program, but considering it was only skated once in 2006, it's not like bringing back something that he had for two full years, such as the Metallica LP or Rise. I would have had a tough time defending a third season of Rise.

    A longer version of my thoughts, but still brief: 1. The Matrix is not what I'd have chosen by any means 2. looking at how he's been marked these last few seasons, it's exactly what the judging has been pushing him to do 3. it's what he likes and he's entering his 11th senior season, so I figure he's earned the right to do what he wants . 4. I still would have picked better music.
    I think if Chan skated to Beethoven for four distinct seasons, he'd be criticized for it with the same tone, if not harsher, than my own. I don't see my comment as that off base.

    You are correct, of course, to say that he's only skated The Matrix for one complete season. Given that Joubert is working with Wilson, it's doubtful the program that this program will be an exact copy (rule changes mean that's unlikely.) Anyway, here's what I said leading up to Worlds 2011 in terms of what I wanted for Joubert:

    Fifth: Brian Joubert
    WHY: Because there’s something really intriguing about his desire to reinvent himself ten years into his senior career. Because I want the passing of the baton to occur next year.
    WHAT NEXT YEAR: Comfort zone. 2012 looks like it’ll be your retirement and doing what made you popular is a fine way to go out.
    I wouldn't have rendered it so literally, but I actually like this music/that program, so I'm actually okay with it.

    Anyway, we can go to pm/different thread since this is definitely trailing off topic.

  14. #209
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Actually I was going to say the same as Buttercup , that he skated to it only in 2003-2004 season and then to another season worlds, but saying that I think since it is really a signature program of him I dont understand how many times he wants to ressurect its music, I dont think it is a wise choice. Besides there is so much music to skate to even if he feels his last season programs didnt work well...Matrix isnt even a great OST.
    I think thought Matrix by Wilson would be fun and good.

    question: since he used this though in two seasons(not whole but still two different ones) he can use the same music for a third?
    Last edited by seniorita; 10-06-2011 at 09:10 AM.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTnoona View Post
    Did Hanyu perform 2 programs or one?
    First Hanyu skated in JO after Shizuka and before the break. He wasn't listed as a guest skater for JO originally, so his appearance on the ice was a huge and great surprise for the audience. He got the ovation and he thanked people for all their help and support to the hit-by-the-quake areas. He is from Sendai and during the quake he was there, at the skating rink, training. He had to evacuate in skates, broke the blade. Then he and his family stayed in a shelter for a week because the house was unlivable. Some time later he got moved to another skating rink in Kansai (?), where he did nothing but went to training and all the rest of time he just locked himself up in a hotel room. Then he was touring around Japan with other skaters and it seemed like he got back on tracks. I assume the whole story and the fact that he is from Sendai were the reasons why JO organizers decided to switch a guest skater and gave the spot to Hanyu.
    At COI he felt after a quad, the opening jump, and felt painfully on the left knee. Of course it reflected on his jumps in a show. He did land 3A and a combo 3A-3A but the second jump was with the mistake. In the finale he tried a quad again and his last attempt was more or less successful but he touched the ice with both hands.
    In general he, Dai and Miki got the loudest ovation on that night.

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