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Thread: Japan Open

  1. #166
    Custom Title DianaSelene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Oh, I was exagerrating the conspiracy stuff, but the program is just so obviously bad. Not divisive, not Nichol-boring-but-high-points-anyway, but just a poorly put together program. That interview Morosov gave where he stated he basically tossed Mikis' program together in a couple days, knowing if she hit the jumps she would win.... well, Amodio doesn't have that kind of advantage, and he's made it more likely he wouldn't hit all the jumps (see how many he doubled/singled here). It's interesting to note that gmyers assumed Lysacek would take the strategy of backloaded six jumping passes in order to avoid the quad. I pointed out that's something Morosov would do, and while Amodio didn't avoid the quad (good on him for going for it here) I have to say I feel somewhat vindicated.

    re: Fernandez - he left because he felt Amodio was getting all of the attention. It'll be interesting to see if Amodio follows suit if Voronov/Leonova/V-T/I-K start to dominate that scene. I doubt it.
    Although V-T often see Morozov and he does their choreography, he doesn't spend that much time on them since he does not coach them. Sometimes, he is just there and helps them out about twice a year.

  2. #167
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    I knew a 6 jump after the halfway point program was coming and it did. It was just a matter of time with all the five jump after the halfway point programs. I thought it would be done sans quad but it wasn't. I still think a skater with no quad will try it. All Morosov did was take it one jump further. Amodio didn't do that well with it though and maybe that was because it was early in the season or just because he is never really all that clean that much. He has improved his consistency. In the 2009-2010 season he would be like 3 in the SP and 10th in the FS or just really messy. He moved to 5 after the halfway and did fine like when he won Euros and made it to the GPF. So obviously he is fine with the midloading. I can see other skaters trying 6. Just like five became the norm so could six. Not enough ladies have competed to see if anyone will follow ando with doing five after the halfway.

  3. #168
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    I dont believe someone would suggest Kozuka to drop the Lp music, we have almost made a campaign for a skater to skate to a Hisaishi's soundtrack, any, and the time has come! I mean I think Kozu choice alone has made my whole season. His take five program a couple of seasons ago was one of the best skates, and I dont think he is not musical, I dont get what people expect from him, he is not Daisuke or Hanyu, he has his own style.. I just found he wasnt comfortable in the program at all. I also read he changed boots a week ago?
    By the way Hanyu, as much as I love him, still skates a bit rushed through a choreo, like junior.

    I was thinking watching Chan and the steps before 3axel , why he doesnt make a little easier entrances, I know he wants to challenge himself, but between risk of falling and having a simple entrance and land the jump, i think the latter is better. It is not like he wont get the Goe if he does it easier in one /two jumps, his quad for example is great anyway. And with his pcs margin he has the luxury to do it, I think.

  4. #169
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    Love, Love, Love..... Rochette. What an amazing showing for someone not training for the big stuff. And she performed firebird, which is the program that may me fall in love with her

    Alyssa- great job at going for the triple-triple. Not in love with the music choice but, whatever.

    Tut- great outing for her but, she is not all there yet for me.

    Akiko- great job young lady, keep it up you have stiff competition.

    Miki-the curse of winning worlds is that you fall apart the next year. It's back to "Learn to Skate" for her.

    Leanova - you keep growing on me.

    Men

    Chan - love the program, you are my favorite but you should not have won.

    Dai - you are equally among the greats. Program lacks the pizzazz that you give.

    Kozuka - there is nothing you can do to get me to rewind my vcr.

    Gachinski - you are starting to live up to the hype, just in time for Sochi.

    Amodio - you are one cheesie guy. good luck with the program, I don't hate it but, I don't love it either.

  5. #170
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    1. I'm fine with skaters keeping their programs IF they can improve on them or if they are trying to up their game in a big way. I'm not thrilled with Chan keeping "Take Five" simply because I don't see him skating it better than he did at Worlds. I wasn't fine with him keeping "Exilados" because I thought his performance at 4CC was as good as it was gonna get (though I am aware the Olympic season was about the quad for him). Keeping POTO made sense because he was upping his technical content ridiculously and he never skated it clean that first season.

    2. re: Kozuka and "Nausicaa." My personal opinion is that I love that he's skating to Hisaishi, but he chose my least favourite of his scores/Miyazaki's movies to do it with. Now, it's clearly close to Kozuka's heart (he cut the music himself, and the recording was done specifically for him) so I'm willing to be wowed, but as skated at this event, it wasn't all that amazing. But I haven't been floored by an LP of his in general. I love watching him, and I think his "Bold as Love" SP is one of the finest in COP history, but I'd actually rank this program fourth or fifth of these six (definitely behind Buttle, Chan and Takahashi. I'm undecided about Gachinski).

    3. gmyers, did you notice that of the six backloaded passes, Amodio missed five of them? He singled, doubled, or lost out on a jump on five out of six. That's why it's a foolish idea to do TOO much backloading, because it's actually harder to do jumps in the back half. He also had the worst choreography and transition marks of the group (a consequence of Morosov's style). And also that he had the lowest levels on his spins and footwork, and this is against someone who hasn't been competing with the rules! The amount of points he's giving up is ridiculous, and in front of a tough judging panel, he can be crucified. He already has two brutally tough GP events where medalling will be challenging. I would be floored to see any other skater follow suit (outside of Morosov's camp, anyway)

    4. seniorita, that's a great question. I actually think his issue with the 3A is mental, not physical. Ever since he bombed the GPF (08/09) it's basically been a trouble jump for him. You actually do see him rearranging jumps around because the transitions are too difficult before you see him losing the actual transitions (in POTO, originally, it was the 3 Loop after the spread eagle, but the loop is a trouble jump for him, so he switched it with the flip, which he does with ease).

    5. DianeSelene, thanks for the clarification. Both Tatiana and Maxim have praised him quite a bit, so I always assumed he had more influence.

    6. Buttercup, Morosov already stated in an interview that the French federation wanted Amodio to go somewhere else but he refused. Now, Morosov came off very self-congratulatory in the interview (he criticised Rippon for leaving him and was quite harsh on the Japanese federation for not giving him enough credit for Takahashi) so I wouldn't be surprised if he exagerrated. That stated, Morosov and Amodio clearly have a strong relationship (the post-Euros hug) and Amodio is a lot more talented/consistent than Voronov so I can see him remaining the number one man for Morosov, which would be enough.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    I dont believe someone would suggest Kozuka to drop the Lp music....I dont think he is not musical...I dont get what people expect from him.....His take five program was one of the best skates
    1. I love the music, which is beautiful. And the beginning slow part suited Kozuka well. The bad part began from the middle section when he performed his circular footwork, when the music required the pianist's fingers "danced" on the keyboard to produce Staccato (snaps of the finger to send the hammer flying to its goals), when the downbeats and upbeats were pronounced.
    2. He is a lyrical skater and musical as well. And from his past performance, I know for certain he has a musical ear. It is just that he does not appear to be a bouncy type of dancer in my mind. The staccato part I mentioned earlier requires a bouncy, hopping feel.
    3. What do I expect from him? I expect him to WIN the gold. But I don't think he can do so with this program.
    4. Although Take Five has drum beats, the upbeats and downbeats of its melody are not as pronounced as the ones in Soul Man and in the middle section of his new program. Take Five has a smooth (not bouncy, hip-hopping, hard-hitting) feel. And Kozuka excels in smoothness.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 10-04-2011 at 09:03 PM.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    1. I'm fine with skaters keeping their programs IF they can improve on them or if they are trying to up their game in a big way. I'm not thrilled with Chan keeping "Take Five"
    I think Patrick is upping his game in a big way. He plans to include 4S this season. And his arm movements, body lines, posture are significantly improved--in a big way (though not up to my high standard yet, so don't be surprised if I criticize them). And don't forget that the difficult footwork and transitions of his new LP require more practices than the simple ones of most other skaters'.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 10-04-2011 at 09:30 PM.

  8. #173
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    Okay. I was fine with keeping POTO because he was upping his game in a big way AND he never skated it perfectly. Truth be told, I didn't expect him to get the quad so naturally either. Had I known that, I might have been less fine with it.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Okay. I was fine with keeping POTO because he was upping his game in a big way AND he never skated it perfectly. Truth be told, I didn't expect him to get the quad so naturally either. Had I known that, I might have been less fine with it.
    So you're upping your expectation in a big way too?

    You make a great Tiger Mom!

  10. #175
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    just my 2 cents - but I thought Chan's POTO at Canadian Nationals was just about as good as that could get. But regardless, I too find some of his line and arms movements/hands etc in this new LP quite wonderful and it is really cool to see the continued change and growth.

    Since I have said a lot about Chan, I would like to mention that I really think Kazuka has it all - but, I didn't really understand his music for this LP and it left me a bit cold or sort of detached upon first viewing, but I thank many of the posters that explained this music so I could understand it more. I expect to appreciate this program a lot more now that I had this 'schooling' - and his abilities are very "WOW" to me so I look forward to watching him...and many, many others this season. I haven't seen Dai's program yet nor many of the others, but I love that the season has started!

  11. #176
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    At this stage, nobody's program is anywhere near what it could and would be. I expect refinements and great improvements as the season goes on. We may glimpse at the potential and speculate but really can't judge them yet. The JO skaters are among the best so I'm sure they will eventually skate their programs to their full glory. Except.......

    I finally watched Amodio's. Oy. It was so empty. Other than some very cheesy posing and dancing in place, it was basically moving across the ice from one jump to the next, especially during the second half. And he popped most of the jumps. I don't understand how he got higher score than Takahashi. (Unfortunately I can't view the protocol now as I don't want to reinstall the Japanese font support after I just cleaned up my drive C because my computer was freezing up on me these last couple of days.) Amodio had no right to be out of breath at the end. This program is hopeless and needs to be ditched, period.

    Bring on the new season!
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 10-04-2011 at 11:18 PM.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    3. gmyers, did you notice that of the six backloaded passes, Amodio missed five of them? He singled, doubled, or lost out on a jump on five out of six. That's why it's a foolish idea to do TOO much backloading, because it's actually harder to do jumps in the back half. He also had the worst choreography and transition marks of the group (a consequence of Morosov's style). And also that he had the lowest levels on his spins and footwork, and this is against someone who hasn't been competing with the rules! The amount of points he's giving up is ridiculous, and in front of a tough judging panel, he can be crucified. He already has two brutally tough GP events where medalling will be challenging. I would be floored to see any other skater follow suit (outside of Morosov's camp, anyway)

    .
    I did see it and mentioned it. That could be because of placement of jumps or time of season-early. He can do five well sometimes. Six could be stretching it. If he does his first GP with only five than six would have been judged too much. I think that is different from the choreo problem he has. His style of standing really didn't play at either the GPF or worlds. Maybe judges did see the six in a row without many or any transitions and said no-but they have been embracing 5 jumps after the halfway point with near zero transitions between any of the jumps. This could have been a one time Japan Open experiment but maybe it will appear in the GP. I will be interested if it does. Making the jumps worth more after the halfway point has not really encouraged end of program jumps or jumps in the last 30 seconds or minute just right after the halfway point. Morozov testing how far this can go isn't a bad thing but maybe using Amodio is unfortunate. Post halfway makes the base value higher-so mistakes are even worth more. When Amodio moved to Morozov he went from frontloading to many more post haflway point. I think 2 or 3 to 5. So this six is interesting but not worth much if it's too many.

  13. #178
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    as someone said before,Plushenko and Joubert never change their style to chase for artistry,but not that much people ask them to,why Dai,Kozuka,Chan etc must? I think it's maybe because most people on the forum watch this two generations from the beginning to the end,and from western countries,so they are kind to the old generations,but hard to the new generations or skaters from the unusual skating countries outside north america and europe...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    ...Continue my comments. Takahashi has shown his usual flair and artistry. Too much and too soft hands and wrists for my taste. I prefer Chan's and Buttle's masculine softness in the programs to Takahashi's "flamboyance" - a brilliant word from Joe when he described Takahashi's style. Speaking of Joe, where is he these days? I hope he's healthy and still has time to post here.
    I love Dai's former style!it's passionate,intersting and impressive.This new LP is different,but I don't like it yet,not that impressive compare to his former ones...maybe because I "reading before watching" his program.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I finally watched Amodio's. Oy. It was so empty. Other than some very cheesy posing and dancing in place, it was basically moving across the ice from one jump to the next, especially during the second half. And he popped most of the jumps. I don't understand how he got higher score than Takahashi. (Unfortunately I can't view the protocol now as I don't want to reinstall the Japanese font support after I just cleaned up my drive C because my computer was freezing up on me these last couple of days.) Amodio had no right to be out of breath at the end. This program is hopeless and needs to be ditched, period.
    Totally agree.
    I once thought Amodio is one of the most passionate,musical and talented skater now.and he can dance well and is a showman.But after he with Morozov,all disappeared...his jumps seems better,but all the other is worse.FFSG must be blind╮(╯_╰)╭

  15. #180
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Buttercup, Morosov already stated in an interview that the French federation wanted Amodio to go somewhere else but he refused. Now, Morosov came off very self-congratulatory in the interview (he criticised Rippon for leaving him and was quite harsh on the Japanese federation for not giving him enough credit for Takahashi) so I wouldn't be surprised if he exagerrated. That stated, Morosov and Amodio clearly have a strong relationship (the post-Euros hug) and Amodio is a lot more talented/consistent than Voronov so I can see him remaining the number one man for Morosov, which would be enough.
    Thank you for reading Morozov interviews so that I don't have to . I have to say, Florent was so excited after winning Euros, I think he would have hugged anyone and everyone in his path. If the FFSG is not happy with what Florent is doing, I imagine we'll find out soon: the Masters is this weekend, and it should give us some indication of how the French skaters are doing and how the federation feels about their progress and their chances.

    Re some of your other points...

    Chan and transitions into/out of jumps: even if the issue is primarily mental, I agree with seniorita - he should focus on getting the 3A consistent before he focuses on the steps going into it. The point of a jump is to land it, not to have steps going into an unsuccessful attempt (I realize this is occasionally forgotten with all the emphasis on TR). It's not like his marks have suffered for not doing steps into the 4T. Also, I understand that he is trying to improve on the tech side, but he keeps a program every single season. I can't think of another skater who does that as frequently, and while I realize choreography is expensive, it's not like everyone else in skating is in amazing shape financially.

    Even lesser Hisaishi is better than no Hisaishi!

    I still maintain that Buttle had the best program of the lot - and for all that he is a talented guy, that is a sad statement about the current state of skating.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuCN View Post
    as someone said before,Plushenko and Joubert never change their style to chase for artistry,but not that much people ask them to,why Dai,Kozuka,Chan etc must? I think it's maybe because most people on the forum watch this two generations from the beginning to the end,and from western countries,so they are kind to the old generations,but hard to the new generations or skaters from the unusual skating countries outside north america and europe
    Look, I don't expect everyone to like Plushenko (I'm not really a fan myself) or Joubert, but that is a ridiculous statement. Both have tried new things artistically, and while it hasn't always worked, it should be acknowledged. Think of Joubert last season: he did a flamenco short and a classical LP, neither of which was anywhere near his comfort zone, and he worked with choreographers he hadn't before. That is exactly what a skater does when he wants to challenge himself on something other than the tech. If you don't like it, fine, that's you prerogative, but it's dishonest to suggest there is some double standard at work.

    Dai does try new things often, and he's worked with a lot of different choreographers to get different perspectives and influences. Kozuka, too. Meanwhile, the biggest risk Chan has taken artistically is Take Five. I say that's pretty meh compared to the other guys.

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