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Thread: Japan Open

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    we have almost made a campaign for a skater to skate to a Hisaishi's soundtrack, and the time has come! I mean I think Kozu choice alone has made my whole season.
    I like Kozuka so much that I don't want him to lose his medal hope this season just for your personal enjoyment.

    His LP music cut contains four sections: A (slow), B (dance-like, with staccato), C (Baroque-like, with polyphony and counterpoint), and A' (slow). The bouncy B section exposed his dancing ability; the busy C section buried his soft and smooth skating. After he was overwhelmed by B and C, he lost his feel for A' (the fourth section) as well. It was a disintegrated skate (or program). Lack of mileage? New boots? Yes, but I think it was more than that. In my view, B and C sections simply go against his grains and fail to highlight his strength. And the program is simply bad, not artistically constructed. There is no cure for it.

    Though he had a clean LP in last Worlds, he can still "up his game in a big way" with that Lizst concerto program, for instance, adding more difficult transitions and jump entrances, paying more attention to body lines, adding another quad.....
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 10-05-2011 at 01:58 AM.

  2. #182
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuCN View Post
    as someone said before,Plushenko and Joubert never change their style to chase for artistry,but not that much people ask them to
    There was a program on channel4 some 10 years ago called Journeys into outside, where they found people around the world that were making wacky works(large contructions a la Hunderwasser) and someone would call it art or garbage depending how they would look at it. Everytime I read the word artistry trying to get measured I think of a modern art exhibition I had gone were people were making paintings with socks.
    Anyway I think Joubert has actually tried different styles, but it is good to know what it is not in your range. And Plushenko used to experiment more in his exhibitions (i dont mean sexbomb) than competition programs, and once he found the golden goose he stayed there. I never thought Nijinksi was the same as Godfather, but that is just me.
    For all I know, someone might like Amodio program and call it art, I know I dont like it but in Amodio's mind, or audience's or his fans it might be something extraordinary.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    I like Kozuka so much that I don't want him to lose his medal hope this season just for your personal enjoyment.
    Thanx, that was a good laugh. As much as I would like to have any credit for the choices of Takahiko, I believe it is his personal enjoyment, and /or his coach - choreographer ΄s involvement ( i also read he did the music cuts himself and the music was re - recorded for him) in this new program, all I actually do is agree with them and applaude the choice.
    Last edited by seniorita; 10-05-2011 at 02:11 AM.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    all I actually do is agree with them and applaude the choice.[/COLOR]
    So, can you please tell me why you applauded the choice (besides it is the music you like) or can you identify any good part about that new program?

    There is in fact one part I really like: The very beginning before the first jump.

  4. #184
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Though he had a clean LP in last Worlds, he can still "up his game in a big way" with that Lizst concerto program, for instance, adding more difficult transitions and jump entrances, paying more attention to body lines, adding another quad.....
    Noooooooo! No more transitions! Even if Kozuka were to bring back that program, it does not need all that extra clutter. Almost nobody holds an edge or a landing position these days because of the transition madness. Transitions should serve the program, they should not be its focus - look at Jeffrey Buttle, the linking movements are an organic part of the program; that's how it should be done. Kozuka usually has a good balance with enough difficulty without making the programs look too busy.

    IMO, Takahiko primarily needs to focus on getting more consistent and on improving as a performer. If he feels that Nausicaa is music that he can connect with and perform to, I'm willing to wait and see what he does with it as he becomes more comfortable with the program; maybe he'll tinker with it a bit and make it better. And maybe he'll lose that hideous shirt, which will also make things better.

    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    For all I know, someone might like Amodio program and call it art, I know I dont like it but in Amodio's mind, or audience's or his fans it might be something extraordinary.
    I've yet to see any positive comments about that program. Maybe in Amodio's mind it is art, but he might find out pretty quickly that others do not share his opinion...

    Nijinski is certainly not the same as The Godfather!

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Kozuka usually has a good balance with enough difficulty without making the programs look too busy. Look at Jeffrey Buttle, the linking movements are an organic part of the program
    Isn't it frustrating that Kozuka and Jeffrey Buttle did not get high enough scores for that? I agree with you, but my suggestions for Kozuka is to WIN (to collect scores here and there) under the current system.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 10-05-2011 at 03:04 AM.

  6. #186
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Isn't it frustrating that Kozuka and Jeffrey Buttle do not get high enough scores for that? I agree with you, but my suggestions for Kozuka is to WIN (to collect scores from here and there) under the current system.
    It is very frustrating with Kozuka. I'll leave Buttle out of it because he's no longer competing (outside of JO), but yes, that's the sort of thing I'd like to see more of. Except of course, not everyone can make it look as good as Jeffrey, who has a really great feel for music and how to express it (something that has improved in recent years, IMO). The thing is, some skaters would rather win their way than modify their skating and programs to fit the system. Think of Dai in Vancouver: he knew he didn't need to attempt a quad to be competitive, but he did it anyway because that's how he wanted to become a champion.. And his risk didn't pay off, but I admire him for having done it. I don't know if Kozuka is like that, but I suspect he might be.

    One of the things that the IJS does is force skaters out of their comfort zone, but I think it's important to differentiate between challenging oneself, which is good, and changing what makes a skater unique just to fit the system, which is not. Which brings me back to our conversation from yesterday: skating is becoming homogenized, and I don't like it. Sometimes we still see programs that can get the points without sacrificing uniqueness and originality (Ingo Steuer's work comes to mind), but there are so many paint by numbers programs where all that differs is the sequencing of the elements and the level of execution. Now, I liked CDs when we still had them, and those where all about the execution, but I wouldn't want to see nothing but CDs.

  7. #187
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    So, can you please tell me why you applauded the choice (besides it is the music you like) or can you identify any good part about that new program?
    I never break a program into pieces, especially in the beginning of the season. As to what I liked in Takahiko 's program, I really want to see him skate it well and we should give him a chance, i think it is too early for an verdict that he should ditch his program. It looked like a draft and I didnt see him so out of beat (except he finished off the music) It is not an Amodio like program to freak out, he is one of my favs since 2-3 seasons ago, he is too good, it is rare I dont like a program of his at the end. Actually I can think of two right now. I dont know what explanation i should give, if he likes his choice so do I. If he thinks he can be inspired with this, why not? besides maybe he is bored with his old, or he feels he skated it the max at Worlds, and there is nothing to give there, I wouldnt be thrilled with another program like Lizt. The choice of music is rather important of me not because I like it, but because it is not another warhorse, it says that he searched about his new program and didnt take the Nichol best of cd from the shelves. The same with Daisuke, many people are sceptical or didnt like it, I was watching him and the minutes went like this. It is something new for both of them.

    I agree with you, but my suggestions for Kozuka is to WIN (to collect scores here and there) under the current system.
    I think your solution is to root for Lysacek.
    Last edited by seniorita; 10-05-2011 at 06:07 AM.

  8. #188
    Custom Title christinaskater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post

    *The best lady of this competition for me was Akiko Suzuki. Excellent presentation, excellent footwork, and big jumps (that was definitely her best 2Axel-3Toe ever!!!). Not as much jump content as Elizaveta, but enough for her superior performance ability to clear the gap in my opinion.

    She really had the best performance! One of the best performers in figure skating!

  9. #189
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    1. I love Chan, ergo, I'm a fan of transitions. I'm not even sure I think transitions NEED to serve the program the way you do (after all, no one argues that a triple axel NEEDS to serve the program). However, and we've discussed this before, I agree that the way transitions are marked is flawed.

    How do you respond to a transition? One of two ways, imo. Either, you respond to it as the way it makes the subsequent element harder/more beautiful. In that case, it works as a GOE-booster. I'm thinking the way Savoie used transitions to lead into virtually every jump, but Shawn Sawyer, Yu Na Kim, Chan are modern equivalents. OR you respond to it as the way it works with music (interpretation and/or choreography). Chan's spread eagles when the music flourishes on Aranjuez/POTO, for example. While I understand that having the transition mark seperate as a component theoretically encourages skaters to have them, often that doesn't actually work (since the judges are asked to cluster marks, judges tend to peg the individual components to the highest one, ergo transitions get boosted whether or not they deserve to: see Plushenko or Joubert). Consequently, I think having a seperate transitions mark is actually unnecessary as it places too much weight on them (as GOE, as it's own component, as choreography).

    That stated, I don't see how this complaint applies to Chan. I actually think his transitions tend to be woven in extremely well throughout his program. In Aranjuez in particular, the transitions seem designed to reflect the music (the steps he does before the lutz, the death drop into his spin, the leaping entry into his steps), and I don't think this program is cluttered or rushed at all.

    2. Amodio and the hug: I know - but it was cute and affectionate and it made me not dislike Morosov for thirty one point two seconds.

    3. I actually think you give Buttle too much credit, actually. The guys have really upped their technical game certainly, which almost makes their programs automatically more challenging . Buttle has excellent artistry, but I think Dai will definitely get their with his "Blues for Klook" (which, by the way, I'm instantly obsessed with after having watched him skate, so I don't share your dislike of the music - I listen to it on youtube pretty constantly now).

    4. re: trying new things. In the case of Chan, it's simple. Because he keeps a program annually, he doesn't stretch himself as he could. Because people aren't in love with his programs, it makes it even worse. He relies on skating skills as opposed to charisma to draw people in, which is a less emotional way to engage people.

  10. #190
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    It seems like Kozuka likes his LP music and program VERY much. "As this is made with the music I like, I want to express the feelings with my whole body."
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3HkR...eature=related

    When Amodio came to Seoul in August, some of his fans unofficially interviewed him for a long time. According to the fans, he appreciates Morozov's coaching and enjoys being with him. I think his program is still in the process and he will change the costume(but the theme will also be a tiger.) I think he has solid techniques and unique showmanship like no one else. I don't mind his music choice. It's just different.

    Skaters, audience and commentators(by the way, Yuka Sato and Takeshi Honda) did not care too much about points or winning.
    Evidence : http://www.sponichi.co.jp//sports/ne...41360_view.jpg

    Relatively expensive tickets but neverthless large audience. Most reviews from the audience are saying in general that they were content with what they saw at the event.
    Last edited by sunny0760; 10-05-2011 at 08:10 AM.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    I think your solution is to root for Lysacek.
    Nay, Lysacek is another Plushenko, who bores me to death. Here is my wish list:
    1. Oda wins a world medal before he retires.
    2. Kozuka wins a World Championship before he retires.
    3. Patrick wins an Olympic before he retires.
    4. Jeffrey never retires.

  12. #192
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
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    I can't argue with any of what you wrote... obviously we don't see eye to eye on some things, but I certainly understand your views and preferences. Whatever people are seeing in Chan's skating, I just don't see, and at this point I doubt that will change. He is a very strong technician, but to me his skating is never more than the sum of its parts; no magic. But then, magic is not quantifiable or objective, and can hardly be marked as such. Still, I do feel that even on the more objective criteria, he is sometimes overmarked. And that, at least, is something that can be discussed and debated.

    I thought the Amodio-Joubert hug was much cuter than the Amodio-Morozov one... Morozov, BTW, is vastly entertaining to watch at the boards during his skaters' programs; I don't think any coach comes close. I do think he cares about them, or at least some of them - but there is the taste issue.

    Speaking of Joubert, he has been telling the French media that he's probably going to be staying in competitive skating until Sochi, though he might not do GPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Nay, Lysacek is another Plushenko, who bores me to death.
    He is not - take that back! Plushenko has way more charisma.

    ETA: and far better jump technique.
    Last edited by Buttercup; 10-05-2011 at 08:50 AM.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuCN View Post
    I love Dai's former style!it's passionate,intersting and impressive.This new LP is different,but I don't like it yet,not that impressive compare to his former ones...maybe because I "reading before watching" his program.
    I do like Dai, and agree that he is one of the best artistic skaters in the world. But time and again, his hands and wrists bothered me. The new program, the old style. Didn't find anything new. One approach can't suit everything everytime.

    Finally watched Kozuka. I can't say Kozuka is not musical, and I can't say I don't like the music either. I like this music and I like his classical long lines. However, there were disconnections between his performance and the music, just like his last year's LP. Beautiful skater and beautiful music. But they don't belong to each other. Probably the music is too sophisticate to skate.

  14. #194
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    I like Chan, Dai, and Koz. All their new programs are the rough cuts at the JO and subject to much tweaking, for the better I'm sure. The executions and performances likewise were far from their optimal.

    I like Dai's program and skating, too bad that he messed up too many jumps, so he has much training to do for the technical (TES) aspect. Koz skated well for this time of year but, in contrast to Chan, I feel a disconnection betwen the music and his skating, even though he followed the general tempo. Maybe the music is too sophisticated for skating, as Bluebonnet suggested. But Koz is a great skater and he likes the music so this is a worthy challenge. I love Chan's Aranjuez for how the choreography and his skating skills convey the music so beautifully and movingly. As last year, he has a planned progress for the program so at this stage he's "practicing" the difficult steps and jump entries, expecting to get comfortable enough to introduce a new quad at Canadian Nationals as practice for Worlds. If it works out as he plans, it will be a masterpiece to behold.

    Gachinski is gaining appreciation from me. I supported his Worlds Bronze as he did earn his TES and as some main contenders faltered, he got on the podium by default. His skating, PCS part, left much to be desired. It is amazing what a great leap forward he has made with a good choreography. Kudos to Mishin too for realizing the need. Now the young Artur is for real, a force not to be ignored.

    Amodio gave the skating world a What Not To Do competition choreography, the worst of both 6.0 and CoP. The total lack of transition in much of the program wouldn't even pass 6.0, especially with all the popped jumps dispite such entries. He even added extra time for solicitation of anticipation and applause to the old fashioned complete pause before the "footwork" at one end of the rink, as well as his trade mark standstill in the middle of a step sequence. I have never liked his facial expressions and dancing in place (as opposed to Dai's skate dancing) but this is really OTT. Maybe he and Morozov, knowing how much his fans appreciate such charisma, try to give them more. I hope they are pleased and charmed more than before.

    I have thoughts on and inspired by the fine wines, Rochette and Buttle, but will have to leave that for later.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Koz skated well for this time of year but...I feel a disconnection between the music and his skating, even though he followed the general tempo.
    That should be a forewarning for Kozuka: He skated well, he followed the general tempo, but there was still a disconnection between the music and his skating as observed by many including me--Something intrinsically wrong with his program.

    Marina Zueva is a good choreographer. I noticed, for instance, she put complicated footwork leading to all jumps in the 3rd section of his Nausicaa program to match the busy Baroque-like music. But unfortunately the music is still much busier than his skating.

    If he must keep the music (which is beautiful as a matter of fact), here is my solutions for him:
    1. Replace one jump of the 3rd (Baroque-like) section with a big, busy, complicated choreographic footwork. And move the original jump somewhere else (frontload or backload his jumps).
    2. Change his circular footwork in the 2nd section to be more bouncy, dance-like.
    3. Shorten the setup by adding footwork to the jump executed in the 2nd section.
    3. Add more subtle hand/arm movements to utilize every nuance of the slow sections (1st and 4th)

    In other words, re-choreograph the whole thing.

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