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Thread: Lalique - Van der Perren/Joubert

  1. #1
    TriGirl Rinkside
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    Lalique - Van der Perren/Joubert

    Question about Lalique men's free skate for those of you who have paid attention to the CoP more than I have ... How did Kevin and Brian end up with approximately the same scores for their respective skates? VDP had a 3/3/3, but he also had 3 axels - and I believe they were doubles? There's no slow-mo on the VCR in my apartment, but I do believe they were doubles. First of all, why he can do 3 of the same jump? and why does that score higher than a quad, 3/3, and a triple axel (I'm assuming that Joubert had a triple axel, but I don't remember off hand). Both were interesting programs, but I thought Joubert's had more in betweens/footwork.

    Probably should have re-watched both of the programs before I posted this, but I think my description of the programs is at least somewhat accurate!

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    Re: Lalique - Van der Perren/Joubert

    Question about Lalique men's free skate for those of you who have paid attention to the CoP more than I have ... How did Kevin and Brian end up with approximately the same scores for their respective skates? VDP had a 3/3/3, but he also had 3 axels - and I believe they were doubles? There's no slow-mo on the VCR in my apartment, but I do believe they were doubles. First of all, why he can do 3 of the same jump?
    You can do as many as you like of double jumps, but not triples or quads. This isn't new -- the "Zayak rule" has never applied to doubles (or singles).

    Joubert, on the other hand, did three 3toes, so he officially got zero credit for the last one.

    Here are the details:
    http://www.isufs.org/results/tll2003..._FP_scores.pdf

    and why does that score higher than a quad, 3/3, and a triple axel (I'm assuming that Joubert had a triple axel, but I don't remember off hand).
    Joubert had 6 triples that counted, plus a quad and a 2lutz. And the final 3toe that didn't count.

    Van der Perrin had 7 triples plus 3 2axels.

    Joubert had one level 2 spin; VDP had two. Not that that makes as much difference.

    Both were interesting programs, but I thought Joubert's had more in betweens/footwork.
    All of their step sequences were called as level 1. Joubert didn't have a second sequence listed, so either he left the field moves sequence out completely, or the caller didn't recognize it. In which case whatever field moves he did would have counted as transitions.

    Joubert did score higher for "transitions" -- 7.00 vs. 6.65 for VDP.

  3. #3
    Tripping on the Podium
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    I don't think anyone questions the fact that under CoP, VDP outscored Joubert. But did he outskate him? I think many people question whether the values of elements and the systematic calculation of the marks in CoP, equal the skater/performance. But anyway, Joubert did place ahead of VDP in the free skate, but the point totals were too muddled among the skaters in 2nd through 4th.

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    Thanks for the analysis. It is much appreciated. My gut reaction to the two programs was that Jouberts was better and more difficult; however, the breakdown under the CoP indicates otherwise.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I like both skaters. Kevin has more a joie de vivre than Brian but Brian has the quad. To me, all other elements are equal. So it is my insistance of what they did that night which will determine the medal winner. I will watch closely this Sunday. Hope they show both skaters.

    On a personal note, I find that Kevin will by 2006, be the better of the two. But that's a guess - anthing can happen between now and then.

    Joe

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    TriGirl Rinkside
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    Originally posted by Joesitz On a personal note, I find that Kevin will by 2006, be the better of the two. But that's a guess - anthing can happen between now and then.
    Will be interesting to see. If VDP can't get at least a triple axel, I'd guess he's not going anywhere. If Joubert can loosen up a bit, I think he's got huge potential - but I already like they guy

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    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Translated into the old 6.0 system, we would say Kevin won the technical, but Brian won the presentation. As for the actual difference between their scores -- 133.41 for Brian vs.133.38 for Kevin. This is similar to the old 4-5 splits under 6.0 system.

    P.S. I can envision Moyesi's wheels beginning to turn to put out another message on the evils of CoP (no offense)

  8. #8
    Tripping on the Podium
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    As for the actual difference between their scores -- 133.41 for Brian vs.133.38 for Kevin. This is similar to the old 4-5 splits under 6.0 system.
    Why would you say that this is similar to a 5-4 split? I *think* the marks in the detailed data on the scores are scattered randomly so that none of the judges' marks are identifiable, but if we assume hypothetically for illustration purposes that the columns each represent a single judge's marks, I broke down the total marks for presentation like this:
    Joubert:
    35.50 36.25 35.75 34.50 38.00 39.25 38.25 39.25 39.75 34.75 32.25

    VDP:
    35.75 32.00 34.00 35.50 35.25 39.25 38.25 31.00 29.25 36.00 31.25
    In this case, at Lalique 6-3 judges placed Joubert over VDP in the presentation marks. 2 were tied. Furthermore, under the traditional scoring system, it goes without saying that BJ's program would have placed ahead of VDP in the tech marks. (VDP simply milked the CoP with his 3 double axels.)

    And, if you include Skating Skills and Transitions under the technical mark, as people say they belong, then you'd also see that an overwhelming majority would have placed BJ ahead in the tech mark as well.
    Joubert:
    SS 7.25 7.25 7.00 7.00 7.75 7.50 7.25 8.00 8.00 7.00 6.50
    T 6.75 7.00 6.50 6.75 7.25 7.00 7.75 7.00 7.75 7.50 6.25

    VDP:
    SS 7.00 6.50 6.75 7.00 7.00 7.50 7.00 6.00 6.00 7.00 6.25
    T 7.00 6.25 6.00 7.00 6.75 7.25 7.25 5.00 5.75 7.25 6.00
    And for Performance/Execution, Choreography, and Interpretation, grouped together as one presentation mark, BJ still wins a solid majority of the presentation marks.
    Joubert:
    21.50 22.00 22.25 20.75 23.00 24.75 23.25 24.25 24.00 20.25 19.50
    VDP:
    21.75 19.25 21.25 21.50 21.50 24.50 24.00 20.00 17.50 21.75 19.00
    Keep in mind, I'm pretty sure that the data does NOT list the individual judges' marks under the same column. But the point is that a close competition as defined by CoP is not the same thing as a 5-4 split of the judges in the ordinal system, which is most likely bloc judging. If 2 or more skaters are ranked closely in CoP with very close scores, it is simply a failure of that system in differentiating skaters, and does NOT imply anything about who the judges actually preferred (would have ranked higher) in that competition. In fact, under CoP the majority of judges might prefer Skater A over Skater B, but the CoP can erringly put Skater B ahead in the standings. This is probably what happened at Trophee Lalique. I don't think the panel was divided.

  9. #9
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Originally posted by moyesii


    Keep in mind, I'm pretty sure that the data does NOT list the individual judges' marks under the same column.
    Yes, it appears they do. We had pretty much suspected that they did and Mr. Cyr confirmed it last weekend:

    At this point, Charlie [Cyr] brought up accountability. He mentioned that the protocol sheets each skater gets now doesn't list the judges names under each column and everybody hates that. He handed one out and told us which was his column. He says that's going to change - the names will be put there in the future.
    hockeyfan228 quoting Ms. Hughes fron SkateFans.

  10. #10
    Crazy Armchair Fan/Resident Nerd
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    I would like to point out something here: although VDP did do 3 double axels (overkill, I admit), he did do a triple lutz-triple loop (11.4 points) and his signature triple salchow-triple toe-triple loop (14.6 points). That's 26 points alone, and his first two jumps in the program. Joubert only did one combo, a rather simple triple toe-triple toe. He was also in 6th after the short, while VDP was 4th, so he had a smaller margin to make up.

    That's one good thing about the new code of points: you're not guaranteed to win if you have a quad, you have to skate the rest of your program which means landing your triples and working on your spins .

    And, lest you write off VDP as a flash in the pan, let me add that he does have a triple axel and a quad, but he isn't doing them because he's recovering from knee surgery (there's a hint, Evgeny!)

    Sorry--I'm biased because VDP's been one of my favorites all year; I'm all for more countries at the top. Don't get me wrong, I like Joubert, but VDP deserved this one. Let him enjoy it.

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