Instrumental Versus Vocal Music | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Instrumental Versus Vocal Music

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Thank you for the cordial welcome. As I said, I have been lurking here for the past year and am VERY impressed with the comments posted. I'm strictly Amateur Hour--can't skate let alone ever competed--but I love the sport and am definitely an Avid Fan(atic).

IluvTodd--yes I believe that HP did use Penguin Cafe Orchetra's "Perpetuum Mobile" for a commercial. I didn't know that anyone had ever skated to it before (if you have a link for the program I'd love to see it). It is one of my all-time favorite pieces of music, a quirky combination of classical and minimalism. Much of PCO's music is like that, and I think would work very well for programs. And frankly, as the target audience for FS, I'm beyond bored with most of the old warhorses.

But to be more true to the topic at hand, I think cheesy pop vocals can kill a wonderful program. Case in point: Sameulson and Bates' free dance set to a dreary Celine Dion number. What the hell were they thinking? I know they've gone their separate ways, but why didn't anyone clue them in to all the lovely--and little used--music of the 30s and 40s? They had such lovely lines and they waste them on a dreary pop ballad.

Again, why is so much of skating music either beyond ponderous or middlebrow crap? I realize that skating is desperate right now to attract a younger audience, but why pander? It's like the "rock" musicals of the 70s and 80s... Instead of "rock," you get Andrew Lloyd Webber pablum like "Jesus Christ Superstar." Hey--but that's both ponderous AND middlebrow. And most definitely crap.

And while I'm on a roll here (LOL!), the other thing that cracks me up are those ridiculous "stories" coaches and choreographers try to graft onto a program. Almost makes one want to tell them, Look, you're not Agnes DeMille and this isn't the original production of "Oklahoma." It's a four minute number. I don't need some elaborate "story" that never really comes across anyway. Lyrics or not.

Uhm, ok. Anyone else need this soapbox now? I promise I'm done with it for the time being.
 

iluvtodd

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
United-States
iluvTodd--yes I believe that HP did use Penguin Cafe Orchestra's "Perpetuum Mobile" for a commercial. I didn't know that anyone had ever skated to it before (if you have a link for the program I'd love to see it). It is one of my all-time favorite pieces of music, a quirky combination of classical and minimalism. Much of PCO's music is like that, and I think would work very well for programs. And frankly, as the target audience for FS, I'm beyond bored with most of the old warhorses.

I did a Youtube search, and the program is not up. However, I will ask a friend if she has the show on DVD. If she does, maybe she can download the performance to Youtube. The music is really pretty, and I love the interaction of the four skaters in it.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
I may be odd, but I find that lyrics stifle the creativity a skater or a team can put on a program. Once a lyric is put on a song, the dancer/skater/artist is locked to interpreting those words.

ITA. Once there are words (no matter the language) the skater is acompanying the text rather than the music accompanying the skater. I'll make a partial exception for things like vocalaises, humming etc with no discernible words.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
I'll just use WeakAnkles' soapbox to climb up on the bandwagon.:)

Of course that's not to say that I haven't enjoyed programs that included vocals , but that's almost always in spite of the vocals and I would have preferred an instrumental rendering.
 

Reginald

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
I like the idea of letting skaters use vocal music. Sometimes, instrumental music is so bland.
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
I think skaters need to be selective when choosing music, vocal or instrumental. Some vocal pieces that had no lyrics were just purely beautiful (Scene D'Amour and Concerto for a Coloratura come to mind), whereas completely within the rules because they are instrumental, but seem to be chosen because the crowd will easily identify with it, and it is easier for the skaters to interpret are instrumentalized pop songs (see Dube and Davison's body of work).

It is easier to interpret songs with lyrics, because the crowd can interpret the music for you. The danger lies in that interpretations of songs can vary from person to person; while many people thought Crone and Poirier gave the best interpretation of Eleanor Rigby, I thought they could have gone even farther (I do agree their program was magnificent0.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Ooh, the Concerto for Coloratura. I was so excited when Bereshnaya and Sikharulidze used that one year. By Gliere, I think, right? It's so ravishingly beautiful. I think you've put your finger on something, Blue--vocal music is exciting because it includes the human voice. It's not the lyrics as such but the sound of a singer or group that pulls us (or at least me) in. I often barely listen to the lyrics; I just think of the voice(s) as instruments in the orchestra. Of course that's easiest when the singing is in a language I don't know or at least don't know well enough to follow in a song.

I think songs with more obvious lyrics--usually songs that are hugely popular or current--have a different effect. There it's all to easy for skaters to go with the meaning that a performer creates on the original music video, or even to start acting out or pantomiming the meaning rather than indicating the general tone or emotion of the piece.

I do concede that if lyrics are allowed, we are going to get innumerable renditions of Britney Spears or Lady Gaga or some boy band, rather than elevated interpretations of lieder by Mahler. Not an ideal outcome. Now if they made a select committee of GoldenSkate denizens the Dictators of All Skating Music, we'd insure only the best music choices....well, I can dream, can't I? In my kingdom where Michelle still skates and Kurt and Yags remain forever in their prime, this will transpire.
 

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
I think it depends on the program. Like personally, I'd find it hilarious and original if someone skated an ironic program to a mix-mash of the ah "cool" songs (like Kesha, Britney Spears, Lady Gaga, etc) and was purposely making fun of both the singers and current pop culture. But on the other hand, I can see how it would be detrimental, how it could limit a skater's interpretation. On the other hand, I don't see, even if it's allowed, too many skaters really taking advantage of vocal music outside ice dance; I mean, it's not as if skater's are consistently shockingly original w/their song choices every season. And skating's just such an established sport w/a rather Euro-centric traditional outlook in terms of themes, music, programs, etc that aside from a few outliers, I doubt vocal pop music will ever really make it big in fields outside of ice dance. Heck, you don't even hear it much in ice dance. Besides, if vocals of ANY sort were banned in singles and pairs, we would have never gotten say the hauntingly beautiful vocal section in Yu-na's Arirang.
 

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Personally, I prefer instrumental music.

However, the vocal musics have their own merit. For example, the song "smile" that the shibs used last year will not be a good choice to use if there are no vocal as it will only be the same rhythm again and again (even it is beautiful music). When the vocal was added, this song has more meaning even it has same rhythm but the lyric can make the same rhythm feel different. Vocal also make it easier for skaters to interpret as they can act according to the lyric.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
ITA. Once there are words (no matter the language) the skater is acompanying the text rather than the music accompanying the skater. I'll make a partial exception for things like vocalaises, humming etc with no discernible words.
What about skaters performing to songs performed without words? Take Sasha Cohen's "Dark Eyes" for example. It is already a song - would it have really been worse if it was actually performed with words?
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
What about skaters performing to songs performed without words? Take Sasha Cohen's "Dark Eyes" for example. It is already a song - would it have really been worse if it was actually performed with words?

For me, yeah, it would have been a lot worse with the words (though my knowledge of Russian is far too meagre for me to understand anything more than " black eyes, terrible(?)/haunting(?) eyes something something so pretty i love you so something something....)

The melody without the words is more evocative of a general mood and the skater can interpret that in more ways while with the words the burden on the skater is to not clash with them (at the least) or intepret the specific words rather than the general mood.

At least for me, ymmv

Another (kind of) example. I've long thought that the proper instrumental version od "Dancing Queen" could be a brilliant program for the right lady, but I have no desire whatsoever to watch a skater singing to the Abba version.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think there are two main advantages to allowing vocals in competition:

1) It opens up a wider range of choices of music to use, even if the majority of songs, like the majority of instrumental pieces, would not ultimately prove appropriate for competitive programs for various reasons

2) Some rock songs, for example, use rough qualities of instrumental accompaniment and vocal quality that are what makes the characteristic sound of the song, but when they're adapted in instrumental arrangements (assuming an instrumental arrangement even exists), they tend to get sweetened and flattened out with more symphonic arrangements -- it's not always possible to find, say, a nonvocal arrangement that uses electric guitars with a saxophone covering the vocal line, which might be the closest approximation to the feel of the original.

On the other hand, there are many drawbacks to vocals in competition.

1) Listening to the words distracts from watching the details of skating, which should be the primary focus during competition.

2) Skaters may be tempted to interpret the words by acting out the content of the lyrics rather than really timing their skating to interpret the rhythm and melody of the music, which is the point of using music for freeskating in the first place.

3) In international contexts where skaters, audiences, and judges may speak many different languages, using vocals sets up an inequality between those who understand the language in which the song is being sung and those for whom the lyrics are just sounds. So if a skater does choose to act out the words, some of those watching will get it and some won't.

4) It's much harder to cut a song with lyrics to fit the timing requirements of a competitive program as well as the need for separate sections that fit the phrasing of the skater's stamina, jump approaches, step sequences, etc. With instrumental selections, whoever is cutting the music needs to be sensitive to the musical phrasings and key changes when making cuts so they're not too jarring. If there are lyrics, they would also need to be aware of when cuts will interrupt the singer's train of thought, frustrate listeners by removing rhymes, and in worst cases even cut from one section to another in the middle of a word. So there would be a tendency to cut the music to serve the coherence of the lyrics rather than to serve the needs of the skaters's ability to showcase the required skating content.

Most of these considerations are not issues in show programs, where the skating should be serving the concept of the program. But in competition, the music is there to support and showcase the skating.
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
:agree:

IMO, Mafke's comment is spot-on:

"The melody without the words is more evocative of a general mood and the skater can interpret that in more ways while with the words the burden on the skater is to not clash with them (at the least) or intepret the specific words rather than the general mood."

And a huge thumbs up for GKelly's entire post above, which I think is such a complete and brilliant analysis, that there is nothing left for me to contribute on the question :yes:.

(I generally shy away from "Rah Rah" posts, but I felt so intellectually sated in this instance, that I couldn't help myself :biggrin:).
 
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