Should US Figure Skating have training camps like they do in US Gymnastics ? | Golden Skate

Should US Figure Skating have training camps like they do in US Gymnastics ?

Jtsmith12

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 20, 2011
Should USFS change the current training system ?

I was watching the US Covergirl gymnastics classic and I started wondering, do you think that USFS should have a training program similar to the Karolyi Ranch in USA Gymnastics ? Do you think something like these would be good for US skating ? Here's something interesting:

"Following the success of the "Magnificent Seven" at the 1996 Olympics, USA Gymnastics experienced a lull. A new age limit kept some of their top gymnasts out of the World Championships in 1997. While American gymnasts did medal in international competitions such as the Goodwill Games and the Pacific Alliance, they were largely unsuccessful in most major meets. In both 1997 and 1999, the American team left the World Championships without a single medal.

After the 1999 World Championships, USA Gymnastics attempted to revamp their program by hiring Károlyi to serve as National Team Coordinator. Károlyi required that all national team members attend frequent grueling camps at his ranch near Houston and selection procedures for international meets became more arbitrary"

"In 2001, the National Team Coordinator position was handed over to Károlyi's wife, Marta. While Marta has retained some aspects of Béla's program, such as the training camp system, she has reduced the frequency of the camps. Her approach appears to be different, and generally more acceptable to both coaches and gymnasts. It has also yielded impressive competitive results: between 2001 and 2007, American women won a combined total of 34 medals in World Championship and Olympic competition, including two team titles, the 2004 Olympic all-around, eight individual event World Championships titles, and the 2005 and 2007 World Championships all-around."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Béla_Károlyi#1999.E2.80.932000

Sound familar ? Last time we won a medal on the international scene was in 2006 with Sasha's silver medal at the Olympics and Kimmie's Gold at World Championships. 2008 was the last time we had 3 spots for the World Championship. USA Gymnastics was in a slump back than in 1999 and 2000 like we are in now and they took action and changed what they felt needed to be changed and now look how well the us gymnasts are doing. So do you think that maybe American skaters would benefit and get better results international comps, if they were to "revamp" the training system ? I know there are threads talking about what's wrong with are us skaters, spots for the world and olympics, how to select who gets a spot on the national team etc.. Like take the 2011 Nationals ladies results, some people were saying that Rachael and Mirai should be sent to FCC and who ever gets the better results should be sent to worlds. What if all that was decided by a camp instead of a major competiton ? The whole Rachael going to Worlds injured, maybe if we had a camp were all the skaters were training together for Worlds ( alternates included ) someone would have noticed. Of course all this is hypothetical. But do you think maybe revamping the current training system and having one kind like they do in USA Gymnastics would help ?
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So you're thinking this would happen in February or March, after Nationals and before Worlds?

OK, just hypothetically, how would it work?

How long would it last? Who would pay for it? Who would be the coaches? Is the point to see who's most consistent in maintaining the skill level they trained for at home or to introduce new training?
What would happen to skaters who actually go to school (or college, or jobs at the rink or elsewhere) every week except the few weeks they're away at competitions?
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
my gut says no. it's like a bootcamp with some very harsh practices. The girls - especially - already have enough issues to contend with, they don't need that pressure cooker pushing them to do even more to their body.
 

luckykid

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 21, 2009
I don't think it's necessary too. In gymnastics, there are many many skills and the gymnasts can constantly upgrade their skills, so one of the purpose of camp is to verify that they have a certain skill. However in figure skating, there are only so many jumps a skater can do. Sure you can up rotation, but I don't think a camp is necessary to show that you have upgraded your jumps. Besides, upgrades in figure skating doesn't occur as frequent as in gymnastics, so the camp might just be a waste of money and time.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
You're forgetting that Evan Lysacek won gold at the 2010 Olympics, and Davis and White won silver at the same Olympics.

At world championships, Lysacek won the 2009 gold, D&W won the 2010 silver and the 2011 gold. B&A won the 2009 silver, 2006 Olympic silver, and 2006 and 2007 bronzes. Shibutanis the 2011 bronze. Johnny Weir won the 2008 bronze.

So its only the ladies and pairs who have not won a medal in a while. And frankly, US pairs would have to stay together to win something. No sooner did Yankowskas and Coughlin finish in the top 6 at Worlds, but they split up this year. And so did Denney & Barrett split. Not to mention McLaughlin & Brubaker last year.

The men have been doing OK (prior to this year, which was a rebuilding year), and the dancers have definitely been doing wonderfully well. IMO, one of the reasons the dancers are doing well is ...dance has been attracting a lot of skaters, and those same skaters are not competing in singles...perhaps dance is more fun...the opposite of the Karolyi Ranch.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
everything for the medals and the national pride , right? I would not send my child to Karoly''s camp.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
You're forgetting that Evan Lysacek won gold at the 2010 Olympics, and Davis and White won silver at the same Olympics.

At world championships, Lysacek won the 2009 gold, D&W won the 2010 silver and the 2011 gold. B&A won the 2009 silver, 2006 Olympic silver, and 2006 and 2007 bronzes. Shibutanis the 2011 bronze. Johnny Weir won the 2008 bronze.

Besides Sasha winning a silver medal at the 2006 Olympics, Evan Lysacek won a bronze medal (his second!) at 2006 Worlds.
 
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brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Considering the Karolyi Ranch is a hellhole for the girls there, where they just do high volume workouts and are psychologically tortured until Martha and the fat Texan man are satisfied, I would have to say, no.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
From everything I've heard of the gymnastics boot camps here and in other countries, I'd say no along with the rest of you.

Along with everything else you've all mentioned, there's the fact that figure skating is a sport that allows for much more individual expression. A training camp under one coach would undermine a lot of the work that skaters have put in developing their own style and approach.

I understand your impulse to suggest it, though, Jtsmith12. I know there are moments when I wish I could reach through the TV screen and yank one or another of our ladies into shape. And I have no skating or teaching experience! Some form of nationally imposed training standards for two weeks a year sounds like a good way to help straighten some people out. (Naming no names.) It would be great if there were a simple solution to our medal drought, wouldn't it? Sigh.
 

silverpond

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Considering the Karolyi Ranch is a hellhole for the girls there, where they just do high volume workouts and are psychologically tortured until Martha and the fat Texan man are satisfied, I would have to say, no.

Yikes. I watched a television movie about Nadia Comenenici and how the Karolyi regimen was a boot camp of the first order. Granted, this was in Romania, not the US; however, the girls were pushed to the point of exhaustion, and they were practically starved so they would not gain any weight. In one segment, Nadia snuck some junk food and paid heck for it the next day. It was difficult to watch. Perhaps this television movie was a bit overdone, and certainly the regimen did produce Olympic and World medals -- but at what cost? I doubt if the girls actually participated in gymnastics for the joy of it.

Personally, I not think a figure skating camp would be that beneficial. The skaters train all over their country, with their own coaches, and I could envision all sorts of battles among the coaches as to "who will be coaching my skater", etc.

Just my two cents, of course.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
I think the major reason for the "camp" is to create a cohesive look and skill level to the US "team." Since skating does not have the equivilent of team events like gymnastics, it would be detrimental for the skaters to be uprooted from their training base for a few weeks. In some cases, such during the Evna/Johnny wars, skating with your fellow medalists from Nats means skating with your biggest competition, not always a good thing.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Why not use Champs Camp as something like that - where you have the Sports Medicine folks work with the skaters on the perfect off ice regimen for each one (every person's needs are going to be different and I bet there's a lot of cookie-cutterness for each of a particular coach's students which is OK if they all have the same needs)? Then you use Dart Fish to work on "the next big skill" with the skater and their coach. Every person's jumping style is a little different, so what they need to get the *insert skill here* from a correction standpoint is different... I know they use Champs Camp as a summer monitor session where they give feedback on new programs. That can stay...
 

BackStage Barbie

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 22, 2010
Champs Camp aims to serve the same purpose as USAG camps at the Karolyi ranch. Skaters are given advice on their programs, skill sets, and overall packaging at Champs Camp. I think we all remember that Rachael Flatt was even asked to cut her hair after champs camp because a short look would suit her programs better. The Gymnastics camps help to assess the gymnasts' skill levels and consistency, but they are also a team building process. Since figure skaters do not compete as a team, this is not necessary. However, if the "team event" is added to worlds or really happens at the Olympics, a more extensive camp in the off-season may be needed.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Interesting thought, and I think there should be changes made to the US skating program in general. However, I think it would be a mistake to set it up like the gymnastics system. Two different sports, which, I think, require different levels of attention from coaches, staff, etc. I don't think you'd get the same results.

Mainly the changes I would recommend are in the selection of the World team, and the monitoring of the athletes (specifically in the period between US Nationals and Worlds. We don't want Flatt-gate happening ever again). How did the ice dance program turn itself around like that? The US was never historically very good at it.

Having US Nationals be the "do-or-die" comp for selection to the world team worked well for many, many years. But the scoring system has changed and the playing field has evened. I think it is time to revisit this policy, although I realize there is fierce debate about it (at least among fans).
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
I think the only reason why gymnastics has a camp is because gymnastics has a team event. It won't work for skating, because skating coaches can be a bit...territorial with their skaters.

Also, in some disciplines, this is already in existence, where one coach supervises those at the top/near the top in US skating (ie- dance).
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Having US Nationals be the "do-or-die" comp for selection to the world team worked well for many, many years. But the scoring system has changed and the playing field has evened. I think it is time to revisit this policy, although I realize there is fierce debate about it (at least among fans).

Then they should just cancel Senior US Nationals, as it will be a meaningless competition. Just run it for Junior & Novice.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Then they should just cancel Senior US Nationals, as it will be a meaningless competition. Just run it for Junior & Novice.

OK, so you've got maybe 100 or so young women in the US who have passed their senior tests and want to compete in US competitions. Fewer in other disciplines. Probably all would be happy to accept an international assignment if offered but many know they don't have a chance. For most of the ladies and a few of the senior men, even qualifying Nationals would be a longshot at best.

Maybe 10-15 of them have fall international assignments (Grand Prix, senior B, or JGP), based on whatever selection criteria were used last year and the year before.

The rest of them sign up for regionals and top 4 go on to sectionals?

Then what?

Does the international committee look only at the international placements and/or scores to choose US representatives for the ISU championships? Do they also look at sectionals scores? E.g., would Katrina Hacker have been considered for 2008 Four Continents based on her sectionals scores exceeding those of some of the top US ladies on the Grand Prix? Or would Hacker have been out of luck in her breakout season because her most recent international results were non-medal JGP finishes over a year earlier?

Or do they hold a camp in December or January for all the international competitors and top sectionals finishers to see how all the potential Worlds and 4Cs competitors stack up against each other?

How would that differ from holding a competition among those potential competitors? Might as well hold it at the same time as the novice and junior nationals and call it nationals. ;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But the scoring system has changed and the playing field has evened.

Surely an even playing field is greatly to be desired, right? What more could any athlete ask?

Can you explain a little more why you think that different scoring systems require different strategies for choosing the national team?
 
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