Should US Figure Skating have training camps like they do in US Gymnastics ?

janetfan · Aug 4, 2011

R.D. said:
Good point in theory, but in practice what has happened is that the world team has been selected based on increasingly controversial results in recent years. There are issues of skaters being marked much higher in certain scoring components than they would be internationally, which is fine by itself; but there have also been allegations of "favoring" certain skaters by increasing their amount of "Nationals inflation" relative to others...or "boosting" their scores regardless of performance if they had a great season prior to the event. I don't think the current method is as "objective" as some would like to think.

I tend to see more of a difference in scoring between National and International events than I do among International events. Rachel Flatt for example would NEVER get the program components she gets at Nats at ANY international event, regardless of panel.

I think what you are saying is more important than CoP boosters and many skating fans are willing to admit.

If we go back to 2010 Natls and 6.0 was in place Flatt's margin of victory would have caused a much bigger controversy.

If comparitive scores had gone up for the presentation marks fans in the arena and fans on TV would have either been bewildered, angry or had a long laughing fit at Rachael getting the same presentation marks as Mirai.

That is what happened under the CoP and of course it was inaccurate to the point it felt biased and political.

When skating de-emphasized the artistic components it also began using the components more to boost the favorites rather than judging them fairly.

Don't believe me but we have heard this from Lori and of course Joe Inman. Jenny Kirk devoted an entire blog to it.

If Rachael and Mirai had both received 5.8 for presentation at Natls the charade would have been exposed.
Casual fans don't know and most don't care about the scoring system as long a they can understand at some level what it means.

"201" and "188" did not make it clear to casual viewers that Rachael won by such a large margin because she was judged as Mirai's equal in the PCS.

US Natls in the CoP era has had contoversial scoring and caused several longtime skating fans I know to walk away.
They just don't think it matters anymore and that it is not only too political but inaccurate.

As RD implied keeping Natls as the qualifier does give US Skating a better abilty to select who they want on the Natl team more than if Intl scores were weighted more heavily and factored into the equation.

Tonichelle · Aug 4, 2011

Dee4707 said:
I don't understand ....why just the 90's????

That was the "golden era" of figure skating in the US money and TV wise. It was oversaturating the news/media as well as television all winter long. It lasted a couple of cycles - far longer than a lot of people probably thought it would. It made skaters like Boitano, Hamilton, Browning, Yamaguchi - even Wylie - into the extremely wealthy stratosphere. They probably wouldn't have had the careers they did without the whack/media frenzy that followed.

R.D. · Aug 4, 2011

Nagasu skated with life in that FS. Flatt was, well, you know...yeah, that.

seniorita · Aug 5, 2011

Tonichelle said:
That was the "golden era" of figure skating in the US money and TV wise. It was oversaturating the news/media as well as television all winter long. It lasted a couple of cycles - far longer than a lot of people probably thought it would. It made skaters like Boitano, Hamilton, Browning, Yamaguchi - even Wylie - into the extremely wealthy stratosphere. They probably wouldn't have had the careers they did without the whack/media frenzy that followed.

really?It is so difficult to imagine fs being in the mainstream sports category, it must have been an awesome period to open your tv and watch fs just like that.

Tonichelle · Aug 6, 2011

seniorita said:
really?It is so difficult to imagine fs being in the mainstream sports category, it must have been an awesome period to open your tv and watch fs just like that.

Yup, it was pretty awesome. A lot of it was the professional competitions and shows, not much more competitions for oly eligibles than what we got in 2000-2006, but still, a whole lot more than what we have now... and the shows IMO were way better in production, skating, and thought.

leafygreens · Aug 18, 2011

BackStage Barbie said:
I think we all remember that Rachael Flatt was even asked to cut her hair after champs camp because a short look would suit her programs better..

Worst decision ever. If this is the advice skaters are going to get, they'd be better off not going.

R.D. · Aug 18, 2011

Yes, I agree. Long hair was better. What's this new trend of women cutting their hair short?? I personally hate it. Few can actually pull it off IMO

leafygreens · Aug 19, 2011

Slightly OT, but the national gymnastics champs was on last night. The competitors did so poorly that Tim Dagget said it was the worst champs he'd seen in over 10 years. They kept showing a close up of Marta's face and she was pissed. :laugh:

Jtsmith12 · Aug 19, 2011

@Leafy lol I was watching the whole thing and kept thinking back to this thread. But in my opinion I don't think it's the camps fault for that mess last night, I think it's the code. Is it possible that their code is so hard that the gymnasts can't even keep up with it ?

brightphoton · Aug 19, 2011

I don't like watching gymnastics. It looks super dangerous and scary. If I were competing, my skill sets would consist of: clutching the beam for dear life, hanging from the uneven bars at a complete standstill, and rolling around on the floor.

leafygreens · Aug 19, 2011

Jtsmith12 said:
Is it possible that their code is so hard that the gymnasts can't even keep up with it ?

I don't know, but it's a bit unrealistic to expect that gymnasts are going to get better and better every year, or that this year's team will be just as good as last year's. They are different athletes and even if they were the same they would have different bodies. And there's a limit to how much a human can do. Perhaps with event "specialists" now in gymnastics, all event routines are expected to be harder, and they are pushing themselves beyond what they can do. I'm not a gymnastics expert but I remember about 10 years ago, the beam event had one tumbling pass and it was usually a back handspring layout stepout layout stepout. Last night I didn't really see a long tumbling pass, but multiple, twist flip maneuvers, and I don't think that's a coincidence why everyone was falling off the beam. I'm not versed in their COP but a huge change recently has been that they're not allowed to take a step on the landing of floor tumbling passes. I think that's a pretty unnecessary rule, considering hardly any of the gymnasts can fully stick all four of their passes. No doubt it also places more stress on the legs. Last night, there were two fields of athletes, the "vets" and the newbies. The vets were mostly out of shape and hadn't competed in a while, and the newbies were too inexperienced. All of this probably had something to do with it.

brightphoton said:
I don't like watching gymnastics. It looks super dangerous and scary. If I were competing, my skill sets would consist of: clutching the beam for dear life, hanging from the uneven bars at a complete standstill, and rolling around on the floor.

What about vault - or are you an event "specialist"?

Olympia · Aug 19, 2011

brightphoton said:
I don't like watching gymnastics. It looks super dangerous and scary. If I were competing, my skill sets would consist of: clutching the beam for dear life, hanging from the uneven bars at a complete standstill, and rolling around on the floor.

This is pretty much my approach to gymnastics! I used to watch it, and then it got so precarious, and the competitors so young, that I felt complicit in an act of child endangerment. Every now and then I peek in at the Olympics, but I'm too much of a woos to see it through. It gives me the trembles.

bekalc · Aug 21, 2011

@Leafy lol I was watching the whole thing and kept thinking back to this thread. But in my opinion I don't think it's the camps fault for that mess last night, I think it's the code. Is it possible that their code is so hard that the gymnasts can't even keep up with it ?

Last night was worse. The girls performed better but the defending champion Rebecca Bross injured her knee on vault and is no out for Gosh knows win. Do you know how many top All Arounders have faced major injuries in the last couple of years...The reigning world champion Mustafina is out after injuring her knee at Euros. Russia's Viktoria Komova who was suspected to make a grand debut this year is coming back from ankle surgery and while she's getting better who knows if she'll be fully ready for worlds. two years ago Jiang Yuyuan and Ksensia Afansyeva who could have won the All Around (certainly over a Sloan, falling Bross out due to injury) although both came back. Yang Yilin the reinging Olympic bronze medalist has had back and wrist injuries and is not any where near the same gymnast either. Nastia was out of the All Around for close to a year in 2006-2007 due to injury.

The sport is becoming a survival of the fittest and hoping that your injuries are freaking well timed. This years All Around was suppose to be epic with so a Komova, Mustafina, Wieber show down but is going to be now a cake walk for Wieber. I'm not sure I even want to see Komova getting her Amanar back for Worlds yet.

Johar · Aug 22, 2011

Here is that awful accident Rebecca Bross suffered:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4-FsX7GIJc

Mathman · Aug 22, 2011

With regard to the question of the thread -- should figure skating have a "camp" at which the world team is chosen, like gymnastics does -- it seemed to me that the TV coverage Saturday completely discounted winning the national championship and was all about who impressed the Karoli's enough to be considered for the world team.

I wouldn't want figure skating to go that route.

brightphoton · Aug 22, 2011

Johar said:
Here is that awful accident Rebecca Bross suffered:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4-FsX7GIJc

Oh my goodness, I feel so badly for her. Especially when she landed and you heard that *cccrrrraaaaCKKK* sound of her knee. :disapp:

Scout · Aug 22, 2011

Mathman said:
With regard to the question of the thread -- should figure skating have a "camp" at which the world team is chosen, like gymnastics does -- it seemed to me that the TV coverage Saturday completely discounted winning the national championship and was all about who impressed the Karoli's enough to be considered for the world team.

I wouldn't want figure skating to go that route.

I think a big difference is that, as a top gymnastics country, the US have qualified a full team - 6 people - to go to worlds. In team finals, 3 go up per event and all 3 scores count. So there's a little more scenario testing involved. A camp partially takes off the pressure that Nationals is the be all and ends all, yet at the same time, it tests nerves, readiness and consistency. Taking the top 6 at Nationals wouldn't necessarily happen, because then you'd leave out valuable specialists (A-Sac!!!!). In skating, there aren't as many spots available. Way fewer options.

leafygreens · Aug 22, 2011

Ugh - my whole thread just disappeared because I was trying to link to an article about Rebecca's injury - The point of the article was that she was pushed to do a move she wasn't ready for just to impress Marta. There is a very interesting quote below it, submitted by Dominique Moceanu: "Sadly, the vast majority of coaches, athletes, and parents carry the burden of perception that they ALWAYS have something to prove to U.S. national team coordinator, Marta Karolyi." There is more from Dominique in the article on Universal sports - search for Rebecca Bross injury: Preventable? It will not let me post the link without deleting my post.

I don't remember what I said before my comment disappeared but it was something like - it would be really scary to have a single person like Marta deciding who our World reps are. I believe her presence causes unnecessary stress and injuries. Our World reps 2nd and 3rd spots are technically decided by committee, but the nationals results are only contested if a skater submits a petition or there's an age issue. Having nationals as the deciding factor provides a sense of fairness for athletes and fans. Last year there was an uproar because Rachael did so poorly, that maybe international results should be considered, so Mirai could go to World's instead. But then you are opening the door for a single entity like Marta to run around wielding their power and scaring athletes.

Mathman · Aug 22, 2011

leafygreens said:
Ugh - my whole thread just disappeared because I was trying to link to an article about Rebecca's injury -...

That's weird. What should have happened is that your post should have been transfered to the "Announcements" folder. (I just tried it, and it worked OK for me -- that is, my post showed up in Announcements, plus I got a Private Message explaining the situation.)

Universal sports is a commercial site which is not currently a media partner with Golden Skate. For such sites the GS software automatically sends the information to "Announcements."

Jtsmith12 · Aug 22, 2011

When US Gymnastics stopped winning medals at major international competitons between 1997 and 1999 following the success of the Magnificent Seven at the 96 games. They looked at it were like "okay were not doing as well as we should be doing, what can do to fix that" Hence that's what they formed the camps. I guess my problem is why isn't US Figure Skating doing the same ? How come their not trying to figure out why we stopped winning medals at major comps ? Is it that our skaters just aren't that good anymore ? I don't think that's true. Mirai got 4th at her first olympics and the bronze at 4CC, Rachael 7th at the olympics and 5th at the 2009 World Championships, Alissa won the grand prix final and got 5th at the 2011 Worlds. Also we have so many talented skaters Agnes, Christina, Vanessa, Courtney, etc.. Or is that we compare and expect so many of our skaters to get the kind of results that Kwan and Cohen got ? I'm on a gymnastics forum and one thing I noticed is that they rarely compare american gymnasts with other american gymnasts. They compare Shawn Johnson to Mary Lou Retton because they both smile a lot and have the same build. But they don't compare what Mary Lou or Shannon Miller did and their rountines to what Rebecca Bross or Jordyn Weiber are doing. Or try to compare the 2004 team to the 2008 team. Here's a cute video of Miki Ando and Shizuka Arakawa at a training camp in 2004. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDRXawkcPsQ

Should US Figure Skating have training camps like they do in US Gymnastics ?

janetfan

Match Penalty

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

R.D.

seniorita

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

leafygreens

R.D.

leafygreens

Jtsmith12

brightphoton

leafygreens

Olympia

bekalc

Johar

Mathman

brightphoton

Scout

leafygreens

Mathman

Jtsmith12

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