olympic gold medalist

kinda of a trick one.
personally i think if we go way back all skaters who was 1st in the figures, short program,compulsories, short dance, long program and overall are olympic champions.

as well as the persons who came in 2nd in the figures, short program, long program etc are medalist.
it would cut down the bickering of olympic champs and medalist.
it would help the sport overall. why now that the sport is getting closer to dance, ( which isn't a sport -but a pasttime) it means that normal fans will consider ice skating less of a sport no matter how many jumps a person does.
in that case it negates the triples, triple-triples, axels, quads. but goes more overall pc.
in short term that would put
brian orser, liz manley, michelle, tara, sarah, sasha, nancy, kristi, evgeny with more ogm medals as well pairs, dance teams.
they could list the overall but have ogm medals for those and go back and give them their due.
also how would it look ogm wise if they gave ogm medals in each discipline for the figures, short, compulsorie, short dance, long -free programs.
what would the list look like

The Olympics do not allow one event to determine more than one champion. So while you could have a short program champion and a long program champion, you couldn't have an all around champion using those two skates. You'd have to have another two skates.

ImaginaryPogue said:

The Olympics do not allow one event to determine more than one champion. So while you could have a short program champion and a long program champion, you couldn't have an all around champion using those two skates. You'd have to have another two skates.

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IP I don't think you were clear enough, so I will jump here in, because fairly4 seems quite confused.

You may have a winner of a SP, or LP in an olympic event, that does't translate into an Olympic champion, nor a medal will be awarded to them.
In the Olympic Games there is only 1 Olympic champion crowned based on the total of the segments of each event. Period
That is why Michelle Kwan, no matter how many arguments you may come up with, is not an olympic champion. At the Olympic Games there is no small medal ceremony like at Worlds. There is a big difference between the two championships, WC are governed by the ISU, while the Olympic Games by IOC. I hope now is clear.

herios said:

IP I don't think you were clear enough, so I will jump here in, because fairly4 seems quite confused.

You may have a winner of a SP, or LP in an olympic event, that does't translate into an Olympic champion, nor a medal will be awarded to them.
In the Olympic Games there is only 1 Olympic champion crowned based on the total of the segments of each event. Period
That is why Michelle Kwan, no matter how many arguments you may come up with, is not an olympic champion. At the Olympic Games there is no small medal ceremony like at Worlds. There is a big difference between the two championships, WC are governed by the ISU, while the Olympic Games by IOC. I hope now is clear.

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Thanks, that is a good explanation. Does anyone know why Worlds has a small medal (SP) award but not one for the LP?

I remember back in the days of compulsory figures how Toller Cranston was occassionally referred to as "the three time free skating champion of the world."

Similar comments were often made about Janet as well. But I don't think there were ever any medals given at worlds for the winner of the free skate.

Of course you're correct, Herios. But I think Fairly was saying, what if skating were structured like, say, gymnastics, where each section of the competition is considered a separate event. This is how someone like Shannon Miller or Nadia Comaneci can achieve several gold medals in a single Olympics. I've often wished that this could be true with skating. The idea that all that work leads to but one chance to medal is a nailbiter for skaters, coaches, and fans alike. It would be lovely if there were a little more room at the top.

And of course if this change comes about (I know, I know—pigs will fly before it happens, but a fan can dream!) medals should be awarded retroactively, so that people like Debi Thomas and Michelle, not to mention Elizabeth Manley and the well-deserving Brian Orser, could finally have a gold around their neck. Heck, I'd pay to watch the retroactive ceremony, with podium after podium standing proudly and tearfully while the national anthems of a dozen countries are played one after the other. It would be a great moment in sports.

Yeah, yeah: we'd have to rewrite the record books. Big chore. I'd love to do it! And so would people like Mathman, I'm sure. Don't discourage me with talk of realistic possibilities! Sometimes the impossible is the only satisfying outcome.

I am not sure if I like this idea.

The main reason the Olympic Gold in figure skating is so prestigious is because it is known to be notoriously difficult and unpredictable getting one, with its insistence on a well rounded balanced performances and some may say a little bit luck. It is like a mini marathon, a little slip up here and there can have major consequences on the overall medalling position which were the reasons why it alluded so many greats. e.g Kurt and Michelle.

If you make it so, you might as well change the system for world championships too. But it would mean great skaters like the 2 times world champion Mao Asada would have never won her gold, given on both of her gold winning championship, she failed to come 1st in either of her sp or the lp, yet she was the overall highest score performer on both occasions.

To have separate gold medals would certainly dilute the prestige. It would have rippling effect on how people choose to skate or view skating in the future, and therefore the entire skating industry and how the skaters train.

For starters, it will change the strategy from different competitors to focus on. You may get choreographer and trainers specialist in different programs. Some skaters may become short program specialists only and neglect their long program requirements on crafting a lasting balanced program that test the stamina and demonstrating wide range of elements all gold winning skaters ought have. Or you may get federations decide to use its political muscle favouring the long program if is considered as as a more prestigious or a safer bet to score a gold for their country. Overall, the well rounded requirement for a great skater would suffer and produces different type of skaters who would otherwise scored poorly under the current system.

On the other hand, you may get better crafted SP programs and LP programs, since the focus is more distinguished and any segmentation in the long run inevitably breed specialists.

Interesting thought, though not sure I agree with multiple medals either...

A good comparison might be to the Tour de France, where you have multiple legs (for skating, previously 3, now 2). Each a little different depending on terrain/skill set required, but all very difficult. While they do give out a yellow jersey after each leg, what really matters is who wins in the end.

I agree with os168 that the prestige would be lost. I'm not convinced that giving out multiple Olympic medals would have any benefit - the fact is the skaters want to be the winner, and it would be a consolation prize instead

"Multiple medals" is an interesting concept; however, it might not be realistic or workable with figure skating. When the school figures were part of the competition, perhaps there could have been separate medals for the skater who won the figures, the skater who won the short, and the skater who won the long program, and an overall medal for the skater who had the most overall points. Kind of like gymnastics, as several have written. You would have an all-around (Olympic) champion, then champions of the individual events. Quite possibly, a skater could win more than one gold medal, which would be a max of three for the singles skaters in this day.

Pairs could have three medals - short, long, and overall.
Dance could have four medals - compulsory, original set pattern, freeskate, and overall.

I just do not think this would be feasible in today's competitive arena. Without school figures, all of the events are "skating". While obviously there are differences in required elements, length of the program, etc. it is all free skating. This is not gymnastics, with very distinct pieces of apparatus, it is all skating.

Taking the above as a possibility, at the 1990 Worlds, Jill Trenary would have won gold in the school figures, silver in the long, and the overall gold medal. Midori (who finished 10th in the school figures) would have won gold in the short, gold in the long, and the silver overall.

At the 1988 Olympics, Brian Orser would have won gold in the short, silver in the long, and the overall silver. Brian Boitano would have won silver in the short, gold in the long, and the overall gold.

At the 1984 Olympics, Brian Orser (who finished 7th in the school figures) woud have won gold in the short, gold in the short, and silver overall. Scott Hamilton would have won gold in the school figures, silver in the short, silver in the long, and the overall gold.

Then, look at the decathalon and the various events that comprise this event. There is only one set of medals, not one for each individual event. And these are all separate and unique events, even though they all fall under the track and field umbrella.

Actually FIRS (the ISU of Roller Skating) already does this. They have a figures champion, a free skate champion, and then they re-skate the whole event for the "combined."

The Olympic team event ought to figure in here somewhere. The details are still sketchy, but it looks like a large federation will have the option of sending one set of skaters to the team competition and a different set to the individual championships.

For the team event you might well have a short program specialist and a long program specialist.

herios said:

In the Olympic Games there is only 1 Olympic champion crowned based on the total of the segments of each event. Period
That is why Michelle Kwan, no matter how many arguments you may come up with, is not an olympic champion.

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Has any Michelle Kwan fan claimed she's an Olympic Champion?

first of all i am not confused.
i know there is only one medal for the olympic champion.
however i believe due to the political climate, people juding, and all out cheating, favoritism and/or whatnot. I think whoever is first, second , third after the short program, use to be compulsories, short dance, free long programs. i personally feel they are olympic champs.
like
in 1992-Kristi is olympic champ in the short, long and overall
1994-Oskana is olympic champ overall,free but Nancy is the olympic champ in the short
1998-tara is olympic champ overall-which i dispute, olympic champ in the free,
michelle is olympic champ short, silver medalist in the free, silver medalist overall
2002- sarah is olympic champ overall, olympic champ in the free, but 4th in the short
michelle is olympic champ in the short , bronze medalist in the free, bronze medalist overall
irina is silver medalist overall, silver medalist in the short, silver medalist in the free
2006- shizuka is olympic champ overall, olympic champ in the free program,
sasha is olympic champ in the short, silver medalist in the free program, silver medalist overall
with irina olympic silver medalist in the short, bronze in the long-bronze overall

i know brian orzer was first in the long programs when he came in 2nd both times in the olympics
1988 liz manley olympic champ in the free, but silver medalist overall.
katarina olympic champ overall
so who would be first in 1920 olympics in the figures, long program for each olympic
1924, 1928, 1932, 1936, 1948, 1952, 1956, 1960, 1964, 1968, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 1994, 1998, 2002, 2006, 2010. each discipline who would been 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the mens, short and long programs, ladies, short and long programs, ; dance -compulsories, short, long programs; pairs-short and long programs.
what i was refering too is the media because of time, space they only would have to put the overall champ. that way they wouldn't have to go back and change anything on the books, magazines or whatnot.
what i would like to know is who was first in each of the disciplines of the olympics. if they started that now. why it would mean the judges would pay attention to each disciplines mistakes and not be so anxious to give each one a high score just for the sake of it. they would grade them more by what they did-not on paper, who they was.
because some skaters are better in the short, some are in the long. some do decent on both.

the presitige is lost anyway due being a Judge sport.--what the people claim as unfair judging, bias, cheating , political climate, not taking off deductions for everyone and giving to many people too high of pcs scores.

Olympia said:

Of course you're correct, Herios. But I think Fairly was saying, what if skating were structured like, say, gymnastics, where each section of the competition is considered a separate event. This is how someone like Shannon Miller or Nadia Comaneci can achieve several gold medals in a single Olympics. I've often wished that this could be true with skating. The idea that all that work leads to but one chance to medal is a nailbiter for skaters, coaches, and fans alike. It would be lovely if there were a little more room at the top.

And of course if this change comes about (I know, I know—pigs will fly before it happens, but a fan can dream!) medals should be awarded retroactively, so that people like Debi Thomas and Michelle, not to mention Elizabeth Manley and the well-deserving Brian Orser, could finally have a gold around their neck. Heck, I'd pay to watch the retroactive ceremony, with podium after podium standing proudly and tearfully while the national anthems of a dozen countries are played one after the other. It would be a great moment in sports.

Yeah, yeah: we'd have to rewrite the record books. Big chore. I'd love to do it! And so would people like Mathman, I'm sure. Don't discourage me with talk of realistic possibilities! Sometimes the impossible is the only satisfying outcome.

Click to expand...

Debi Thomas has never won any portion of the competition in an Olympics, so even under that scenario she would not have a gold medal. She was leading going into the long program in Calgary but that was based on being 2nd in both figures and 2nd in the short. Ivanova won the figures, and Witt won the short program.

The analogy with gymnastics is interesting but fails with respect to figure skating. In gymnastics each medal is based on a separate competition, even the all-around medal is based on a separate competition. In figure skating you could have a set of "skills" competitions (one for footwork, one for spins, one for jumps, etc.) and then an individual all-around competition that combined all the skills (e.g. like the present FS). Also, like gymnastics, there could then be a "team" medal ceremony too based on the combined scores from all the individual skills events.

The problem with this for figure skating, is that figure skating is a "complete" sport. For skating, really the "all-around" medal is what skating is all about. You don't have "specialists" that are good at spins only, for example, and weak at everything else. The sport is an "all-around" one - and that is what the OGM in skating represents.

P.S. If there were skills competitions, Lucinda Ruh could have won a much deserved Gold medal in spinning! Yay!

fscric said:

Has any Michelle Kwan fan claimed she's an Olympic Champion?

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Me. She is the Olympic champion of my heart.

The IOC does not allow for medals to be given out for the SP and LP separately; and then another one for a combined total score medal. Not in any sport, including gymnastics. You must compete separately.

They have toyed with the idea of having a separate SP competition and LP competition; but to have it set up the way it is now with a combined SP and LP, the skaters would have to re-skate their programs for an all around title. They decided to add a team event instead, I disagree.

I don't think it would be less prestigious at all. No one thinks Michael Phelps' gold medals are any less prestigious
because he won one in a 100m and another in a 200m butterfly. Nor Nastia Liukin because she won the gymnastic all-around but didn’t get gold in any of the individual events.

I like the fact the ISU gives out small medals. I know other competitions so as well.

pangtongfan said:

Debi Thomas has never won any portion of the competition in an Olympics, so even under that scenario she would not have a gold medal. She was leading going into the long program in Calgary but that was based on being 2nd in both figures and 2nd in the short. Ivanova won the figures, and Witt won the short program.

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Whoops! My mistake. I was sure Thomas led after the short program, but I guess that's not the same as having won the short program. I was relying on memory.

But certainly Orser would have ended up with an OGM or two under this system, and both Kerrigan and Kwan. Alas, Browning wouldn't have a gold at any Games even so, but he might have ended up with a Long Program medal of another color in 1994, if memory serves. He jumped from twelfth after the short to fifth after the long...I can't find any info on his actual placement just in the long program, though. In any case, Browning doesn't need Olympic medals to be amazing. He just is, everywhere but the Olympics.

As for Michelle being the Olympic champion of the heart, I'm with you, Math!

Mathman said:

The Olympic team event ought to figure in here somewhere. The details are still sketchy, but it looks like a large federation will have the option of sending one set of skaters to the team competition and a different set to the individual championships.

For the team event you might well have a short program specialist and a long program specialist.

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That's an interesting concept. The "team" competition could include a group skate; however, it might be little more than an Ice Capades-like "line" skate, with relatively simple jumps and moves, and would that really belong in the Olympics?

Here's a suggestion.....let the highest ranked skaters from each country who do not qualify for the Olympics compete in the group competition. Perhaps the 4th to 6th ranked skaters in each of the singles, the 4th and 5th ranked pairs and ice dance teams could comprise the "team". These would be skaters who are, obviously, highly trained and skilled.

Countries are limited to a max of 3 women in singles, 3 men in singles, 3 pairs, and 3 ice teams (or maybe that's 2 ice teams), and these numbers are based upon the results from the past Worlds and/or other major competitions. Not many countries can send a full Olympic skating team.

The "team" concept could enable every country who qualifies to send singles, pairs, and dancers to field a team. Not every country who has an Olympic figure skating team might be able to also field a team. There might be just a few teams the first time around.