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Entries JGP Brisbane

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
From past records, probably the age of 16 is the limit to acquire reliable 3A. Patrick Chan still doesn't have one and may remain that way. I don't think he could have that privileged treatment if he was an American. In the field of American men, a 16 y/o who can't do a 3A won't be called a "next big thing" even as a joke. So is Rippon. I expected he would be eliminated quickly but he is still hanging on with the shackling 3A. Oda landed his first 3A after 17 y/o. He was physically immature even compared to average Japanese boys of his age. Oda's 3A has remained relatively inconsistent even three years after entering the senior. His "success"as a senior skater depended on huge GOE on all jumps. Jason Brown is not that kind of a jumper.
 
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Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Jason Brown is only 16.

In a couple of months he will be "only" 17 and in about a year "only" 18... If he wants to have a reliable triple axel, the clock is ticking.
 
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mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Lysacek didn't have a reliable 3A at 16. In fact, he didn't have a reliable 3A until he went to Frank C.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Please support these statements with some facts:


From past records, probably the age of 16 is the limit to acquire reliable 3A.

1. Define "reliable 3A"

2. Stats and real examples please.

Patrick Chan still doesn't have one and may remain that way.

With defination of "reliable 3A", stats of his 3A please, like I did for his 2007-2008 season. I realize there were 2 competitions in 2010 in which he had multiple falls but that was almost purely mental, when he debut his 4T and fell even in a step sequence. I'd like to see his overall results outside of those 2 comps.

I don't think he could have that privileged treatment if he was an American.

1. Define "privileged treatment".

2. Supporting stats and facts please, not just declarations such as "he won with falls" and "he will always win even with falls".


In the field of American men, a 16 y/o who can't do a 3A won't be called a "next big thing" even as a joke.

People believe what they believe, rightfully. And they do have high expectations of some 16 y/o or younger. Sometimes such expectations come true and sometimes not. We are having a crop of young phenoms as contrasts right now (which I call "Chan effect" in that he raised the bar of possibilities as a role model) but 1. it ain't always so, and 2. their senior achievements and future health remain to be seen.

So is Rippon. I expected he would be eliminated quickly but he is still hanging on with the shackling 3A.

1. Define "eliminated".

2. Demonstrate how such "elimination" would be because of "the shackling 3A".

Oda's 3A has remained relatively inconsistent even three years after entering the senior.

We have stats in GS, by IPogue I believe, to show Oda to be the best 3A jumper last season. Please present counter facts and stats to support your statement if you have them.

His "success"as a senior skater depended on huge GOE on all jumps. Jason Brown is not that kind of a jumper.

Brown is not a senior skater and he's also experiencing growth spurts. At this point, I don't think anyone can definitively declare what "kind of a jumper" he will be as a senior.
 
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mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
yeah. hicks' jumps were bigger and the successful ones had better run out, but i still think shoji should have had higher PCS in the FS at least. if hicks had the jumps or skating skills of chan i could understand winning the FS with splats, but this... unrefined stroking, presentation, posture... choppy program with choppy musical cut...
What you are asking for isn't really quantified in PCS. According to the quick hitter rules:
SKATING SKILLS
A measure of overall skating ability and quality. Look for speed and flow over the ice surface, and deep edges (demonstrated by the lean of the body). Also, listen for quiet skating without a lot of scratching and look for skating in both directions (clockwise and counterclockwise).
CHOREOGRAPHY/COMPOSITION
An intentional, developed and/or original arrangement of all movements. Look for pattern and ice coverage, placement of elements around the rink, and relationship between the choreography and the music.
INTERPRETATION
The personal and creative translation of the music through movement on the ice. Look for expression of the music’s style, character and rhythm. In pairs and ice dancing, look for the relationship between team members.
PERFORMANCE/EXECUTION
The involvement of the skater/couple/team physically, emotionally and intellectually in the performance, and the quality of movement and precision of delivery. Look for posture, style, personality and projection of sincere emotion to the audience. In pairs and ice dancing, look for balance in performance and spatial awareness between team members.
TRANSITIONS/LINKING FOOTWORK & MOVEMENT
The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. Look for difficult and/or unique movements between technical elements. In ice dancing, look for variety of holds.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Lysacek didn't have a reliable 3A at 16. In fact, he didn't have a reliable 3A until he went to Frank C.

At 17 Lysacek had a triple axel, which he jumped or tried to jump at competitions. Brown is now almost 17 and so far has not even tried to jump it in competions or has he?

Lysacek is a bit different case, because he has mostly been a lot taller than his peers. For a really tall skater the jumping is more difficult than for short guys like Brown.
 
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Okami

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
What you are asking for isn't really quantified in PCS. According to the quick hitter rules:
SKATING SKILLS
A measure of overall skating ability and quality. Look for speed and flow over the ice surface, and deep edges (demonstrated by the lean of the body). Also, listen for quiet skating without a lot of scratching and look for skating in both directions (clockwise and counterclockwise).
CHOREOGRAPHY/COMPOSITION
An intentional, developed and/or original arrangement of all movements. Look for pattern and ice coverage, placement of elements around the rink, and relationship between the choreography and the music.
INTERPRETATION
The personal and creative translation of the music through movement on the ice. Look for expression of the music’s style, character and rhythm. In pairs and ice dancing, look for the relationship between team members.
PERFORMANCE/EXECUTION
The involvement of the skater/couple/team physically, emotionally and intellectually in the performance, and the quality of movement and precision of delivery. Look for posture, style, personality and projection of sincere emotion to the audience. In pairs and ice dancing, look for balance in performance and spatial awareness between team members.
TRANSITIONS/LINKING FOOTWORK & MOVEMENT
The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. Look for difficult and/or unique movements between technical elements. In ice dancing, look for variety of holds.

Well, not all, but some of them are (boldened). IMHO Courtney had more speed, better ice coverage and greater amount transitions, but Risa had quality of movement and precision of delivery, less scratchy stroking and better relationship between the choreography and the music / expression of the music style.


Oda's 3A has remained relatively inconsistent even three years after entering the senior.

It became quite good recently. He even started adding difficult transitions before the jump, even in the 2nd half of the LP, which is not something a skater uncomfortable with the jump would do. Most of his jump problems come from mental issues, IMHO.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
At 17 Lysacek had a triple axel, which he jumped or tried to jump at competitions. Brown is now almost 17 and so far has not even tried to jump it in competions or has he?

Brown has been trying it in summer competitions: Glacier Falls, Milwaukee, Northern Blast, and a couple others. He has had 0 called as clean as far as I know.

Lysacek didn't land it consistently until he went to Frank, C though, if I remember correctly. There was talk of his incredibly wonky technique on it that Frank at least finally harnessed to make it less so. Also, Jeremy Abbott struggled with his 3A until he changed his set up and started using the skid take off, which was around the time he was 22 or 23 (when he first started to become successful in the US).
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Brown also grew a lot this year, just in the middle of learning his 3A, so he has come a ways, but still has a ways to go with it.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Well, not all, but some of them are (boldened). IMHO Courtney had more speed, better ice coverage and greater amount transitions, but Risa had quality of movement and precision of delivery, less scratchy stroking and better relationship between the choreography and the music / expression of the music style.

IMO, while there are a lot of bullets for each of the PCS marks, on most judges' cards speed and flow and bi-directional skating seem to trump all the other bullets in skating skills (and Hicks could not have really good speed and flow if she were scratchy. She might be "choppy" or rush through her stroking technique instead of really paying attention to the details of it, but "scratchy" isn't a good description of her skating), quantity seems to trump in transitions and performance and execution, interpretation and choreography seem to follow along with the two more quantitive PCS marks (and of course, P/E seems to also go up when a skater is mostly successful in a more difficulty-laden program (3/3 and/or 3A for ladies, 4T/S for men) as though pulling a difficult jump pass out makes your performance better. It could be that being successful on that difficult jump pass gives the skater a little extra oomf for the rest of the program. I know, even as an adult, landing the most difficult jumps in my program makes my performance (at least feel) a little better because I get a little extra positive adrenaline boost when I do them and my P/E scores always go up when I land them (my events are typically scored under IJS).
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Brown also grew a lot this year, just in the middle of learning his 3A, so he has come a ways, but still has a ways to go with it.

I believe Brown also changed boots this year. He had been in hinge boots, but they no longer are producing them and he went to more "traditionally" made boots which has changed his technique a little as well.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
IMO, while there are a lot of bullets for each of the PCS marks, on most judges' cards speed and flow and bi-directional skating seem to trump all the other bullets in skating skills (and Hicks could not have really good speed and flow if she were scratchy. She might be "choppy" or rush through her stroking technique instead of really paying attention to the details of it, but "scratchy" isn't a good description of her skating), quantity seems to trump in transitions and performance and execution, interpretation and choreography seem to follow along with the two more quantitive PCS marks (and of course, P/E seems to also go up when a skater is mostly successful in a more difficulty-laden program (3/3 and/or 3A for ladies, 4T/S for men) as though pulling a difficult jump pass out makes your performance better. It could be that being successful on that difficult jump pass gives the skater a little extra oomf for the rest of the program. I know, even as an adult, landing the most difficult jumps in my program makes my performance (at least feel) a little better because I get a little extra positive adrenaline boost when I do them and my P/E scores always go up when I land them (my events are typically scored under IJS).

I honestly think Risa's PCS in the FS were mainly due to the problems she had in her SP, which I think has potential but isn't an ideal fit for her style not to mention her jumps were off there and she did not seem as committed or settled into her choreo there as she did in her FS, thus explaining her lower PCS. And then after placing 5th in the SP, the judges probably figured she did not deserve the highest PCS of the field for her FS, which was clean (to the blind eye) and beautiful and probably deserved the highest PCS, just because after her SP, they did not consider her one of the very best skaters in the field, which she proved wrong after her FS, but the mindset was probably still intact at that point. JMPO but it could have had something to do with it, especially because if you double her PCS from the SP you would get 44-45, and her FS PCS was 47+, so there was an increase already, so giving her PCS of 50 or more for her FS maybe would have seemed too drastic a jump, even if she maybe deserved those kinds of marks.
 

Scout

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
From past records, probably the age of 16 is the limit to acquire reliable 3A. Patrick Chan still doesn't have one and may remain that way.

From this, I can conclude that one doesn't need a reliable 3A to become a World Champion.

And if mskater93 is correct in saying that Lysacek didn't have a reliable 3A at 16, then I'd conclude that a reliable 3A at 16 is not necessary to be a future Olympic Champion.
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
I don't think Lysacek had reliable 3A. Buttle was more obvious.

Patrick Chan proved that a skater with the powerful federation support and 3 quads could have a chance to become a world champion with ONE clean 3A. But the judges might be less generous if a rival with 2 different quads and solid 3A takes the challenge. The Lysacek (Buttle) phenomenon is the thing of the past. THAT won't happen in foreseeable future. Many people agree that new rules on jumps are introduced to prevent such things to happen again.

Even for juniors, no man won a JW medal without 3A in past two years. Let's see Jason Brown can be an "exception".
 
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Blink

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 13, 2011
OK so instead of criticizing these KIDS all of the time and diminishing their potential before they even get there why don’t we celebrate their achievements and acknowledge that they all work harder than most of us ever have in a sport that is extremely difficult. Most of the elite level skaters who are constant targets have put in the 10,000 hours of work towards being an expert before they have even reached adulthood. Now that is commitment. I would challenge any of the negative nattering naysayers to slap on some blades and do what these KIDS do every single day for multiple hours per day all year before imparting criticism and predictions.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Patrick Chan proved that a skater with the powerful federation support and 3 quads could have a chance to become a world champion with ONE clean 3A. But the judges might be less generous if a rival with 2 different quads and solid 3A takes the challenge.

But that skater with his beautiful 3As and quads galore may have a wimpy federation behind him, like the US, or Japan, or Russia. Alas. Poor chap. :cry:
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
OK so instead of criticizing these KIDS all of the time and diminishing their potential before they even get there why don’t we celebrate their achievements and acknowledge that they all work harder than most of us ever have in a sport that is extremely difficult.

Actually I believe it is way better for a young skater to be criticized mildly than to be overhyped and gushed over the top...
 
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