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Thread: Entries JGP Brisbane

  1. #61
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    It is fairer to compare Chan at 16.

    2007 TEB FS No commentary, like the ISU videos.

    Protocol

    A fluke fall at the end on spin. But he landed his 3A beautifully to win. 3As at SA earlier and Nats a couple of months later were also beautifully landed.

    That's what a future World Champion looks like at 16.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 09-10-2011 at 07:56 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by valentine View Post
    Just curious, do all skaters have to look like that at 16 or else they have no future...??? Did Evan or Jeff or Kurt or Elvis look like that?
    No they don't. But Chan didn't win with falls in 3As even if it's so believed and stated. OK he did once, in SC 2010 LP with a quad. He lost SP, at 4th, when he fell on his 3A.

    But I also expect later young skaters to look better and better than the previous generations. Let's see how Nathan Chen will do at 16.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scout View Post
    As much as I (personally) want Najarro to get a second jgp event, I definitely think it should be given to Purich. I believe that this is Najarro's fourth year on the circuit, and her lowest total score and placement to date. With Purich, SC would have data on one more lady. At this point, it's not like SC has masses of ladies to choose from. Roxanne Rheault and Veronik Mallet are the only other 2 skaters on the substitution list. Unfortunately, I don't have much faith in Roxanne. She seems way too inconsistent. Not sure about Mallet. I haven't seen much of her, except that she seemed heads and shoulders above the other girls at the Novice level last year.
    I decided to do a geoskate and post all the summer scores I could find over 115 ( Skate Canada's minimum ) with my comments on protocols and ages on the Canadian summer competitions thread. Based on this research here are the ladies I would consider for an assignment. Look at the other thread for my raw data.

    Purich, Daleman and Greben.

    Mallet is old for someone who just came out of novice ( 17 years old ) and does not have the bigger triples. I share your concern with Rheault.

    Daleman is just 13 and landed a lutz in Thornhill. Also these are the 3 youngest ladies who met the standard and all of them have landed ( or at least rotated ) the bigger jumps.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by valentine View Post
    It will be difficult to ever look better than chan he is an icon just like Browning, they know how to use their blades
    Even now there is a bunch of 16 yo or younger who look really really good, with high PCS and big jumps e.g Yuzuru Hanyu and Han Yan (15). The even younger Nam Nguyen and Nathan Chen as well as some young Chinese Junior Men such as Jin Boyang are extremely talented.

  5. #65
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    First time I saw Patrick Chan was at Liberty. He fell on all his triple axels. He was a smooth skater with good edges who failed to catch the audience's interest. He was skating as a senior-perhaps July 2006 or July 2005. In any case, he did exactly the same thing the following year.

    Watching junior and first year senior skaters can be both difficult and rewarding, and sometimes sad. It is all too easy to see the promise, and then to grieve when the promise is not fulfilled. However, there is little better than seeing a young skater develop into a world champion and to think-I remember them winning juniors/novices/when they were wearing braces/falling on their 3A, but you could see the potential then.

    (I remember Kristi Yamaguchi not winning junior ladies (she was second) and was wearing braces. I believe it was 1986 at US championships in Long Island's Nassau Colisseum.

    The girl who won was a charming little chubby jumping bean named Cindy Bortz who landed a triple lutz and a bunch of other triples and who never made a splash in seniors. The third place girl was Rory Flack (now Burghart.) Yamaguchi was second.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 09-10-2011 at 09:28 PM.

  6. #66
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    Fair enough.

    My comment was a little snarky (and admittedly, I intended the snark), but my response is twofold.

    1. I don't watch juniors, pretty much categorically. I haven't seen Adelina nor Eliza nor Courtney Hicks nor Christina Gao skate. It's not so much the unfulfilled promise aspect but that I don't feel all that comfortable with the sport when it's about prepubescent boys and girls. When you add on the general obssession with youth, the way that those that don't make the grade tend to be discarded rather callously, the physical aspects (you've gotta wonder how many of the young girls are pressured into poor health, like Akiko Suzuki was).... I find the whole thing distasteful. Dance tends to be an exception because it feels like the least hyped of the four disciplines, but even there I feel a bit of a conflict. Generally, what I watch for in figure skating isn't present in juniors (command, connection, athleticism), so that makes it largely easy to ignore.

    2. Consequently, I'm VERY leery when it comes to overhyped juniors. I loathed I/K as soon as I saw them on the JGP, for example (that FD remains the worst ice dance program I've seen). The hype for Brown has really kicked into gear as a loud fanbase has developed. But I was underwhelmed with his Nationals LP last season, and his SP now. Didn't bother finishing the LP as it wasn't all that interesting to me.

    3. That said, I'm a wierd fan of the sport. For example, for all my admiration for Chan, I didn't see his first Nationals winning LP until a couple months ago. I don't feel the need to excavate the past of skaters I admire (V/M are the exceptions here) - there are some huge gaps in my figure skating viewing that I'll fill - maybe. Life is short and my interests are many.

    4. The snark was at the Patrick Chan comparison. I know you don't care for him (recalling your comments from seeing him live as well as your comments pre-Worlds), so the only thing I took from what you said was "Well, you like this other skater who doesn't have a 3A but has choreography, so you should like Brown." I'm still a little confused why you brought him up in the first place.

  7. #67
    Custom Title DianaSelene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I loathed I/K as soon as I saw them on the JGP, for example (that FD remains the worst ice dance program I've seen).
    That was indeed a VERY, VERY, VERY bad program but I don't think it is the worst. There were many bad ones.

  8. #68
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I brought Chan up as a skater who had great skating skills but no reliable triple axel at the age of 16, and yet became world champion later. I think it would have been a mistake for Canada to have left Chan off world teams back then, and the wisdom of keeping him on world teams is now clearly evident, as he is world champion. I think it would be a huge mistake not to send Jason to his second JGP, just as it would have been a mistake to leave out Chan.

    Who knows where Jason will eventually go? As I said, watching Junior skaters has its sad side. He may indeed never get a reliable 3A or 4T. I generally stick to the Junior dancers and make no effort to see the junior singles, but Jason last year was competing at his first senior men's competition at US Nationals. He completely owned the entire audience, winning 2 thunderous standing ovations, despite not being one of the premier skaters there.

    And therefore, I will always be interested to see how he's doing.

    Besides, his choreographer, Rohene Ward, was a long-time favorite skater of mine, again despite not having much competition success.

  9. #69
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    I had a very snarky response to the Canadian contingent written up, but thought better of it.

    Doris, I hope Jason keeps Rohene as his choreographer for a long time. The two fit perfectly together.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I brought Chan up as a skater who had great skating skills but no reliable triple axel at the age of 16, and yet became world champion later.
    At 16, Chan's 3As results:

    SA SP +1.4 GOE
    SA LP +0.4 GOE

    TEB SP +1.4 GOE
    TEB LP +1.2 GOE

    GPF SP +1.0 GOE
    GPF LP -0.8 GOE

    At 17 and 1/2 month

    NAT SP -2.5 GOE
    NAT LP 0.0 GOE

    eta these are 2007-2008 values when 3A was worth 7.5 and GOE values were lower.

    One fall in 8 attempts, 6 of which at Senior international events.


    I think it would have been a mistake for Canada to have left Chan off world teams back then, and the wisdom of keeping him on world teams is now clearly evident, as he is world champion. I think it would be a huge mistake not to send Jason to his second JGP, just as it would have been a mistake to leave out Chan.
    Of course it would be an unthinkable msitake to leave Chan out of the World Team. He won a GP gold and a bronze, and became the Canadian Mens Champion at barely 17.

    Who knows where Jason will eventually go? As I said, watching Junior skaters has its sad side. He may indeed never get a reliable 3A or 4T. I generally stick to the Junior dancers and make no effort to see the junior singles, but Jason last year was competing at his first senior men's competition at US Nationals. He completely owned the entire audience, winning 2 thunderous standing ovations, despite not being one of the premier skaters there.

    And therefore, I will always be interested to see how he's doing.

    Besides, his choreographer, Rohene Ward, was a long-time favorite skater of mine, again despite not having much competition success.
    Agreed. Jason is talented and very promising and should be nurtured and given all the opportunities. Only your comparison with Chan is highly inaccurate.

    Mr. Duck, you may snark all you want but it wouldn't change facts and history.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 09-10-2011 at 11:57 PM.

  11. #71
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    Pogue .. I find myself somewhere in the middle as to how much junior skating I can watch. I love to see the really promising new talent and watch it develop ..although as doris points out, it's very sad when potential is not realised for one reason or another ... yet there's many and many a performance I just opt out of , and find myself quoting Jane Austen , " Not now, dear. You've delighted us long enough. "

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Fair enough.

    My comment was a little snarky (and admittedly, I intended the snark), but my response is twofold.

    1. I don't watch juniors, pretty much categorically. I haven't seen Adelina nor Eliza nor Courtney Hicks nor Christina Gao skate. It's not so much the unfulfilled promise aspect but that I don't feel all that comfortable with the sport when it's about prepubescent boys and girls. When you add on the general obssession with youth, the way that those that don't make the grade tend to be discarded rather callously, the physical aspects (you've gotta wonder how many of the young girls are pressured into poor health, like Akiko Suzuki was).... I find the whole thing distasteful. Dance tends to be an exception because it feels like the least hyped of the four disciplines, but even there I feel a bit of a conflict. Generally, what I watch for in figure skating isn't present in juniors (command, connection, athleticism), so that makes it largely easy to ignore.
    e.
    But Gao has been in the senior US nationals the past two years I think. I remember seeing her. She came in fifth so maybe you didn't go down the rankings that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    1. Brown is taking advantage of the fact that TES makes up only half your score. He's taking advantage of the fact that there's more to TES than just jumps.

    2. gmyers, who from the American juniors would you send instead of Brown?

    .

    I don't have specific person in mind but there are people. But he will be sent to a second one just like last year but I just don't see that much a benefit for anyone involved when thinking of seniors as part of the equation.

  13. #73
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    I don't object Jason Brown's win, yet I don't think he has a very promising future. He's not Patrick Chan, which means he is an American. The American skaters are always pressured to make quick successes, otherwise they are eliminated through institutionalized "selections". He may be able to achieve some successes without the 3A in the junior (for example, a medal at JGPF), and probably he will be "selected" for senior GP in the next season. For that purpose, he can't afford to "attempt" dicey jumps in actual competitions like Patrick Chan. Brown is pretty good at spins and steps. But in my eyes, those are nothing but compensations for technical weaknesses. A strong jumper can polish up his spins and steps after entering the senior. That is much easier compared to a weak jumper to master the 3A and quads in face of brutal "selections". A man without reliable 3A has even lesser chances in this new quad era.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    2. Consequently, I'm VERY leery when it comes to overhyped juniors. I loathed I/K as soon as I saw them on the JGP, for example (that FD remains the worst ice dance program I've seen). The hype for Brown has really kicked into gear as a loud fanbase has developed. But I was underwhelmed with his Nationals LP last season, and his SP now. Didn't bother finishing the LP as it wasn't all that interesting to me.
    Yes, I think the huge hype over Brown is rather scary and may not be of benefit for the skater in the long run. There are some examples of overhyped junior skaters who did not shine as seniors in competitions. Just thinking of e.g. Caroline Zhang and NNN... My guess is that Rohene Ward was one of them as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    A strong jumper can polish up his spins and steps after entering the senior. That is much easier compared to a weak jumper to master the 3A and quads in face of brutal "selections". A man without reliable 3A has even lesser chances in this new quad era.
    A weak jumper, yes, that was my impression of Brown in this JGP... I hope though that his jumping will succeed better in his next event.
    Last edited by Jaana; 09-11-2011 at 05:12 AM.

  15. #75
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    While Brown may have been a little off in the LP, he IS a good jumper up to 3Lz and his spins and steps are really quite good. I think the thing about Brown is that you REALLY have to see him in person. He is magnetic! His speed and fluidity are quite impressive and he attracts you to watch him skate no matter what the elements are like. Yeah, OK, I might be gushing a bit, but I've watched him grow up and he's had this magnetism for as long as I can remember, even when he was 10 years old in Prejuvenile. His work ethic is awesome, I've shared practice ice with him and he works and works and works (this, according to reports from people who used to skate with him, will set him apart from his choreographer). He was really close to a clean and consistent 3A around the April/May time frame and then he grew about 5 inches which has thrown everything off a bit over the last couple months. I think he's about ready to sprout again...

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