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Thread: Entries JGP Brisbane

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    But Gao has been in the senior US nationals the past two years I think. I remember seeing her. She came in fifth so maybe you didn't go down the rankings that much.
    Yeah, if I could align national and international standards on the senior vs junior issue, I totally would. I also didn't see Nationals, just youtubes.

    I don't have specific person in mind but there are people. But he will be sent to a second one just like last year but I just don't see that much a benefit for anyone involved when thinking of seniors as part of the equation.
    I'm not sure there are. More particularly, I'm not convinced there's another American guy with an 3A that is competing on the junior level who won't already get two spots. Messing and Max Aaron have both aged out. Dornbush is strictly senior now.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    More particularly, I'm not convinced there's another American guy with an 3A that is competing on the junior level who won't already get two spots. Messing and Max Aaron have both aged out. Dornbush is strictly senior now.
    Joshua Farris has a 3A and he's still skating international junior this season. He's assigned to Poland JGP but think not yet a 2nd one.

  3. #78
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    If he doesn't get a second one, I'll agree.

  4. #79
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    Jason Brown is only 16. ITA that without a reliable consistent 3A and quad, great success at the senior level isn't going to happen. But he's working on the 3A, he's apparently gone through some growths spurts, so maybe all he needs is some time. Males tend to develop later than females. While there's no guarantee, I do think that he's on the right track, and that it is too soon to write him off.

  5. #80
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    Menshov just came into his own this year...at 27 or 28. For that matter, Rudy Galindo was 26 when he finally had a break through at Senior Nationals. So people figuring Rippon, let alone Brown, are already toast just haven't been watching.

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    From past records, probably the age of 16 is the limit to acquire reliable 3A. Patrick Chan still doesn't have one and may remain that way. I don't think he could have that privileged treatment if he was an American. In the field of American men, a 16 y/o who can't do a 3A won't be called a "next big thing" even as a joke. So is Rippon. I expected he would be eliminated quickly but he is still hanging on with the shackling 3A. Oda landed his first 3A after 17 y/o. He was physically immature even compared to average Japanese boys of his age. Oda's 3A has remained relatively inconsistent even three years after entering the senior. His "success"as a senior skater depended on huge GOE on all jumps. Jason Brown is not that kind of a jumper.
    Last edited by NMURA; 09-11-2011 at 09:19 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scout View Post
    Jason Brown is only 16.
    In a couple of months he will be "only" 17 and in about a year "only" 18... If he wants to have a reliable triple axel, the clock is ticking.
    Last edited by Jaana; 09-12-2011 at 05:04 AM.

  8. #83
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    Lysacek didn't have a reliable 3A at 16. In fact, he didn't have a reliable 3A until he went to Frank C.

  9. #84
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    Please support these statements with some facts:


    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    From past records, probably the age of 16 is the limit to acquire reliable 3A.
    1. Define "reliable 3A"

    2. Stats and real examples please.

    Patrick Chan still doesn't have one and may remain that way.
    With defination of "reliable 3A", stats of his 3A please, like I did for his 2007-2008 season. I realize there were 2 competitions in 2010 in which he had multiple falls but that was almost purely mental, when he debut his 4T and fell even in a step sequence. I'd like to see his overall results outside of those 2 comps.

    I don't think he could have that privileged treatment if he was an American.
    1. Define "privileged treatment".

    2. Supporting stats and facts please, not just declarations such as "he won with falls" and "he will always win even with falls".


    In the field of American men, a 16 y/o who can't do a 3A won't be called a "next big thing" even as a joke.
    People believe what they believe, rightfully. And they do have high expectations of some 16 y/o or younger. Sometimes such expectations come true and sometimes not. We are having a crop of young phenoms as contrasts right now (which I call "Chan effect" in that he raised the bar of possibilities as a role model) but 1. it ain't always so, and 2. their senior achievements and future health remain to be seen.

    So is Rippon. I expected he would be eliminated quickly but he is still hanging on with the shackling 3A.
    1. Define "eliminated".

    2. Demonstrate how such "elimination" would be because of "the shackling 3A".

    Oda's 3A has remained relatively inconsistent even three years after entering the senior.
    We have stats in GS, by IPogue I believe, to show Oda to be the best 3A jumper last season. Please present counter facts and stats to support your statement if you have them.

    His "success"as a senior skater depended on huge GOE on all jumps. Jason Brown is not that kind of a jumper.
    Brown is not a senior skater and he's also experiencing growth spurts. At this point, I don't think anyone can definitively declare what "kind of a jumper" he will be as a senior.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 09-12-2011 at 10:32 AM.

  10. #85
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skfan View Post
    yeah. hicks' jumps were bigger and the successful ones had better run out, but i still think shoji should have had higher PCS in the FS at least. if hicks had the jumps or skating skills of chan i could understand winning the FS with splats, but this... unrefined stroking, presentation, posture... choppy program with choppy musical cut...
    What you are asking for isn't really quantified in PCS. According to the quick hitter rules:
    SKATING SKILLS
    A measure of overall skating ability and quality. Look for speed and flow over the ice surface, and deep edges (demonstrated by the lean of the body). Also, listen for quiet skating without a lot of scratching and look for skating in both directions (clockwise and counterclockwise).
    CHOREOGRAPHY/COMPOSITION
    An intentional, developed and/or original arrangement of all movements. Look for pattern and ice coverage, placement of elements around the rink, and relationship between the choreography and the music.
    INTERPRETATION
    The personal and creative translation of the music through movement on the ice. Look for expression of the music’s style, character and rhythm. In pairs and ice dancing, look for the relationship between team members.
    PERFORMANCE/EXECUTION
    The involvement of the skater/couple/team physically, emotionally and intellectually in the performance, and the quality of movement and precision of delivery. Look for posture, style, personality and projection of sincere emotion to the audience. In pairs and ice dancing, look for balance in performance and spatial awareness between team members.
    TRANSITIONS/LINKING FOOTWORK & MOVEMENT
    The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. Look for difficult and/or unique movements between technical elements. In ice dancing, look for variety of holds.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Lysacek didn't have a reliable 3A at 16. In fact, he didn't have a reliable 3A until he went to Frank C.
    At 17 Lysacek had a triple axel, which he jumped or tried to jump at competitions. Brown is now almost 17 and so far has not even tried to jump it in competions or has he?

    Lysacek is a bit different case, because he has mostly been a lot taller than his peers. For a really tall skater the jumping is more difficult than for short guys like Brown.
    Last edited by Jaana; 09-12-2011 at 11:57 AM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    What you are asking for isn't really quantified in PCS. According to the quick hitter rules:
    SKATING SKILLS
    A measure of overall skating ability and quality. Look for speed and flow over the ice surface, and deep edges (demonstrated by the lean of the body). Also, listen for quiet skating without a lot of scratching and look for skating in both directions (clockwise and counterclockwise).
    CHOREOGRAPHY/COMPOSITION
    An intentional, developed and/or original arrangement of all movements. Look for pattern and ice coverage, placement of elements around the rink, and relationship between the choreography and the music.
    INTERPRETATION
    The personal and creative translation of the music through movement on the ice. Look for expression of the music’s style, character and rhythm. In pairs and ice dancing, look for the relationship between team members.
    PERFORMANCE/EXECUTION
    The involvement of the skater/couple/team physically, emotionally and intellectually in the performance, and the quality of movement and precision of delivery. Look for posture, style, personality and projection of sincere emotion to the audience. In pairs and ice dancing, look for balance in performance and spatial awareness between team members.
    TRANSITIONS/LINKING FOOTWORK & MOVEMENT
    The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. Look for difficult and/or unique movements between technical elements. In ice dancing, look for variety of holds.
    Well, not all, but some of them are (boldened). IMHO Courtney had more speed, better ice coverage and greater amount transitions, but Risa had quality of movement and precision of delivery, less scratchy stroking and better relationship between the choreography and the music / expression of the music style.


    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Oda's 3A has remained relatively inconsistent even three years after entering the senior.
    It became quite good recently. He even started adding difficult transitions before the jump, even in the 2nd half of the LP, which is not something a skater uncomfortable with the jump would do. Most of his jump problems come from mental issues, IMHO.

  13. #88
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    At 17 Lysacek had a triple axel, which he jumped or tried to jump at competitions. Brown is now almost 17 and so far has not even tried to jump it in competions or has he?
    Brown has been trying it in summer competitions: Glacier Falls, Milwaukee, Northern Blast, and a couple others. He has had 0 called as clean as far as I know.

    Lysacek didn't land it consistently until he went to Frank, C though, if I remember correctly. There was talk of his incredibly wonky technique on it that Frank at least finally harnessed to make it less so. Also, Jeremy Abbott struggled with his 3A until he changed his set up and started using the skid take off, which was around the time he was 22 or 23 (when he first started to become successful in the US).

  14. #89
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Brown also grew a lot this year, just in the middle of learning his 3A, so he has come a ways, but still has a ways to go with it.

  15. #90
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okami View Post
    Well, not all, but some of them are (boldened). IMHO Courtney had more speed, better ice coverage and greater amount transitions, but Risa had quality of movement and precision of delivery, less scratchy stroking and better relationship between the choreography and the music / expression of the music style.
    IMO, while there are a lot of bullets for each of the PCS marks, on most judges' cards speed and flow and bi-directional skating seem to trump all the other bullets in skating skills (and Hicks could not have really good speed and flow if she were scratchy. She might be "choppy" or rush through her stroking technique instead of really paying attention to the details of it, but "scratchy" isn't a good description of her skating), quantity seems to trump in transitions and performance and execution, interpretation and choreography seem to follow along with the two more quantitive PCS marks (and of course, P/E seems to also go up when a skater is mostly successful in a more difficulty-laden program (3/3 and/or 3A for ladies, 4T/S for men) as though pulling a difficult jump pass out makes your performance better. It could be that being successful on that difficult jump pass gives the skater a little extra oomf for the rest of the program. I know, even as an adult, landing the most difficult jumps in my program makes my performance (at least feel) a little better because I get a little extra positive adrenaline boost when I do them and my P/E scores always go up when I land them (my events are typically scored under IJS).

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