Elvis vs Ilia 1998 | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Elvis vs Ilia 1998

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Todd may have been a more consistent and more powerful skater than Rudy, but I don't think that makes Rudy a lesser skater, at least in terms of ability and overall skating quality. Of course Todd had a far superior competitive record, but as my post earlier points out, that's not everything. Rudy had skating qualities on par with Cranston and Curry. As Doris points out, that included excellent spins with interesting positions and great flexibility. His jumps had very tight air position and quick rotation. is edges were great and his speed was and ice coverage were first rate. You don't show up to your first worlds in singles at that advanced age and medal without having some chops, US champion or not. Also, don't forget that he was also a two time US pair champion and top five finisher at worlds in one of the deepest pairs eras ever. That takes skills Todd never displayed.

Regarding Todd and Tara, he was a very nice guy and and unbelievably hard worker, but he routinely lacked a killer instinct, something Tara never had in short supply. There is no better competitive example than his finishing second at worlds three out of four years. I know this can be viewed as a positive, but I remember it a bit negatively. His second places in 97 and 98 should have been first place finishes. He singled his second triple axel and then fell on his final double axel after skating flawlessly up to that point in the 97 FS. If he'd been clean, he likely would have won. He just collapsed. In 98, he screwed up his SP and then won the FS over Yagudin to win silver again. Tara by contrast had nerves of steel when at her peak and suffered only one real meltdown after her 96 worlds debut when she fell in the SP at 98 nationals. But when the chips were down, there was rarely ever a more reliable competitor.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Todd may have been a more consistent and more powerful skater than Rudy, but I don't think that makes Rudy a lesser skater, at least in terms of ability and overall skating quality. Of course Todd had a far superior competitive record, but as my post earlier points out, that's not everything. Rudy had skating qualities on par with Cranston and Curry. As Doris points out, that included excellent spins with interesting positions and great flexibility. His jumps had very tight air position and quick rotation. is edges were great and his speed was and ice coverage were first rate. You don't show up to your first worlds in singles at that advanced age and medal without having some chops, US champion or not. Also, don't forget that he was also a two time US pair champion and top five finisher at worlds in one of the deepest pairs eras ever. That takes skills Todd never displayed.

Regarding Todd and Tara, he was a very nice guy and and unbelievably hard worker, but he routinely lacked a killer instinct, something Tara never had in short supply. There is no better competitive example than his finishing second at worlds three out of four years. I know this can be viewed as a positive, but I remember it a bit negatively. His second places in 97 and 98 should have been first place finishes. He singled his second triple axel and then fell on his final double axel after skating flawlessly up to that point in the 97 FS. If he'd been clean, he likely would have won. He just collapsed. In 98, he screwed up his SP and then won the FS over Yagudin to win silver again. Tara by contrast had nerves of steel when at her peak and suffered only one real meltdown after her 96 worlds debut when she fell in the SP at 98 nationals. But when the chips were down, there was rarely ever a more reliable competitor.

"Nerves of steel at 14" :eek:'

I like reading your posts an find them informative to a point.

Did you ever compete? At anything?

More often than not in sports the athlete /team with less on the line shows better competitive nerves.

I used to judge........many moons ago.

But I judged music performances (in N.America and Europe) and found the same thing to be true for young music debutantes as senior players/and or skaters expected to win.

Sometimes it depends on how we look at things.

I thought Ilia was boring at Nagano, no better than Evan was at Vancouver.


I am not against Ilia, but would say his Nagano LP was more lame than good.

Tat did not bet on anything other than having the judges in her pocket. Repeat that three times and you will almost be a skating fan.
(As in "just bring us cases of Vodka if you want to win").

Not sport, but politics and pageantry.
Elvis wasn't just injured but sick wih the flu.

Had 17 year old Yags not been sick as a dog with the flu he might have changed the results simply by not skating like a robot/zombie the way Ilia did.

Here is baby Yags, already the most expressive skater but it was not his night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLMlt3Noavg

No, he did not deseve to win.

Had he skated clean perhaps......but even then just because he would have been the best does not mean he would have won.

In figure skating, like pageants , it is often more about how the politics will play out.
Those who say Elvis could NEVER have won are the same who forget his three WC's . Ooops :eek::
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
In figure skating, like pageants , it is often more about how the politics will play out.
Those who say Elvis could NEVER have won are the same who forget his three WC's . Ooops :eek::

Nobody is saying that Elvis could "NEVER" have won in Nagano. Most of the replies here in this thread have been responses to your assertion "if Elvis was not just injured but sick as a dog with the flu, Ilia would have had no chance to beat him." Your only response to this appears to be a) Elvis had won three WCs, three more than Ilia and b) Ilia was robotic.

As for your first assertion, you have to look at context. Constantly referring to how Elvis is superior to Ilia because of his three world titles without properly looking at context is like saying that Miki Ando is a superior skater to Yu-Na Kim just because Miki has more world titles. As posters such as pangtongfan and jcoates have (repeatedly) pointed out, Elvis' victories like at 97 Worlds had been won in certain contexts (e.g. meltdown by Ilia in 97, etc). Yes, you could say that Elvis had the ability to repeatedly beat Ilia, and thus had the potential to beat Ilia at Nagano, but it's clear that if you look at competitions where Ilia finally got his act together and skated a fairly decent program (e.g. the 1998 Champion Series Final), Ilia was ahead. So if Ilia skated at Nagano like he did at 97 Worlds, Elvis could've won. I agree. But saying that Ilia had absolutely no chance at being a clean and healthy Elvis at Nagano is just denying the difference in skating quality between the two men, as well as the reality of how they were being marked.

For your second assertion, I agree that Rhapsody in Moo was a snooze. But if you honestly think that Elvis' 1998 LP was that much better on an artistic level, I suggest that you watch Elvis' program again. And let's face it--interpretation isn't the be-all and end-all, technical content and basic skating quality also matter in the Olympics. There's a reason why Philippe Candeloro didn't win the gold despite having one of the more engaging performances of the night.
 

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Wow. Feeling a little touchy Hernando? Disagree with me or other posters all you want, but there's no need to be rude while doing so.

Regarding my competitive past: Was I a skater? No. However I was a college tennis player for four years on top of four years of high school. I also was a decorated high school wrestler in multiple weight classes. Wrestling was something I struggled at initially, but hard work, good coaching and fitness allowed me to improve dramatically. Training for it is brutal, taking place in stiflingly hot rooms for hours at a time on top of weight training, sprints, long distance running, stretching, drilling and sparring. All of this is done while maintaining a competitive weight well below a wrestler's natural one for an entire 6-8 month long season. Both tennis and wrestling led me to suffer injuries including my neck, shoulders, lower back, knees and ankles long with the usual strains and pulls. On top of all this, both of these are individual sports where subs and time outs are not options. Wrestling in particular shares surpising similarities with skating aside from the long season and diverse training. Wrestlers, like skaters, have a remarkably short amount of time during which to complete their matches, a max of 6 min. There is no real time to settle in. You've also got the eyes of the entire audience solely focused on you with nowhere to hide when you screw up. So yes you could say I know a little something about competing, at least enough to express my views on other sports without having my qualification to do so be so obnoxiously questioned.

Regarding Tara and her nerve, it's hard to imagine another skater who has ever won such a complete set of championships in such a short period of time as her. Her age had nothing to do with it. She was competing in the most precocious era in ladies skating in history. It was expected that a 14-15year old American girl be ready to compete at top level. Kwan did, Hughes did, Cohen did. But she achieved the maximum goals faster than any of them. That takes obvious talent, but also determination, guts, focus, and yes a heck of a lot of nerve. She had everyone virtually write her off and assume she'd wait her turn after 98 Nationals and all of Kwan's 6.0s. But she buckled down and pushed harder, unwilling to settle. Michelle skated beautifully, yes, but she was just cautious enough to be caught. That's part of the game of competing at anything, don't leave any regrets behind. Still Tara had to skate lights out and she did. Regardless of whether you think her status as second favorite made things easier for her to sneak by, she put a tremendous amount of personal pressure on herself. That matters more than any external pressure one can ever face. She knew what she was capable of and she pushed herself to achieve it. Taking nothing away from Todd, but that was the difference between them regardless of age. He always had an element of doubt about him that held him back IMO.

Feel free to disagree with me all you want, but I would hope that you can do so more politely going forward. Regarding the original intent of this thread, if your point is that Stojko won more championships, no one can dispute that. However, the quantity of his titles as a barometer of his skill and quality as a skater can very much be disputed as I and several others have done. I stand by my previous posts on that count.
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I think that's a great characterization of Tara, jcoates, especially the way you contrast her to Todd. He started out pretty young, too, after all, and he was never a bulldozer even then. I too remember the poignant interview after Tara won and Todd placed somewhere off the podium. While he was obviously trying hard to be gracious, he actually came out and said said how painful it was that his little pipsqueak training partner (he didn't use those words, of course) won the Olympics her first time out, while he did not win, place, or show after (I think) three tries. I loved his skating and his personality, but he wasn't someone who waded in to life with his teeth bared.

Tara was a pit bull. I mean that in the nicest possible way. She made Michelle look like a wimp by comparison, and Michelle is one of the most mentally tough competitors in the history of American skating. I do wish this was a teachable skill, because I'd start a collection to have Tara instruct some of our current American competitors.
 
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jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Olympia, I agree with you about wishing mental toughness was more teachable. It is something that can be learned and improved, but the very best competitors have that skill innately programmed into them from birth. That does not mean they always harness it from the beginning, but it usually finds its way out eventually.

I'd also like Tara to teach a class on how to do a consistent triple salchow and triple loop. It bugs me to no end that ladies skating has regressed in that so many of the top women no longer even attempt a full compliment of triples minus the axel. I know all the COP reasons, but if I see one more season of 2a sequences and combos, I think I'll scream. I wouldn't mind seeing a rule change requiring skaters to include every jump takeoff as part of their FS. Just one of my pet peeves.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
No, he did not deseve to win.

Had he skated clean perhaps......but even then just because he would have been the best does not mean he would have won.

I think that 1998 Olympics was much too early in Yagudin´s career. Wasn´t he put on 5th place after a faultless SP? I remember that it was mentioned that after his sp skating he did take a shower and went to watch the live competition while his hair was wet. It is very cold in an ice rink!!!. No wonder he got ill, I would have gotten a pneumonia under similar circumstances, LOL. His coach and other skaters warned him, but he did not obey... Well, the result can be seen in his fs performance!

About Ilia´s Nagano freeskate, it´s a huge pity that Tarasova did not create more showy footwork for him! Under 6.0 scoring it would have been great. Candeloro´s "footwork" was very popular in the Olympics and in next Olympics Yagudin´s showy toe-picking... The latter was seen as level 1 in current scoring (maybe Candeloro´s would have been level 0?) :laugh:.
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Regarding the original intent of this thread, if your point is that Stojko won more championships, no one can dispute that. However, the quantity of his titles as a barometer of his skill and quality as a skater can very much be disputed as I and several others have done. I stand by my previous posts on that count.
I appreciate Stojko's accomplishments, and enjoyed some of his performances over the years - but this is so true. I would posit that Stephane Lambiel is a truly great skater, but if you look at his record in ISU championships... it's kind of meh: two world titles, sure (the last man to defend a title successfully) but it took him four tries to even get on the podium. And his Euros record isn't great, with no titles and no medal until his sixth (!) appearance. Titles can be a good indicator of ability, but they also reflect the strength and depth of the fields a skater competed against, the state of the skater's health compared to that of their competitors, etc. It's tempting to use titles and medals as a measure, especially for the 6.0 era, since we don't have scores to compare - but one should proceed with caution when doing so.

I think that 1998 Olympics was much too early in Yagudin´s career. Wasn´t he put on 5th place after a faultless SP?
I don't recall, but Yagudin has spoken many times about how much his expression and artistry improved under Tarasova - and I'm not sure he'd have made a coaching change if he'd done better in Nagano. At the time he was a good technician and had potential, but he wasn't the great skater he ultimately became. And that's not something that can be bought with bottles of vodka, for the conspiracy minded among us (not you, Jaana).
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Wow. Feeling a little touchy Hernando? Disagree with me or other posters all you want, but there's no need to be rude while doing so.

Regarding the original intent of this thread, if your point is that Stojko won more championships, no one can dispute that. However, the quantity of his titles as a barometer of his skill and quality as a skater can very much be disputed as I and several others have done. I stand by my previous posts on that count.


Yes, I am often touchy about figure skating .......but if I came off as too rude I apologize.

I agree with most of the points you are making.

Interesting that you were a wrestler. I was never a wrestler in HS or college but came up against many former wrestlers later in life at my BJJ school.
It was usually fun rolling with new members (almost always former wrestlers and introducing them to jiu jitsu and tapping them out whether by armbar, triangle choke or just a simple collar choke).

My feeling is that anytime anybody in any discipline heads into a major competition and one of their primary competitors is injured (let alone also having flu) that person could be considered fortunate. In the case of Ilia I would say he was extremely lucky Elvis was so far from being able to physically compete at his best.

I stand by that even if you disagree.
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I don't recall, but Yagudin has spoken many times about how much his expression and artistry improved under Tarasova - and I'm not sure he'd have made a coaching change if he'd done better in Nagano. At the time he was a good technician and had potential, but he wasn't the great skater he ultimately became. And that's not something that can be bought with bottles of vodka, for the conspiracy minded among us (not you, Jaana).

I agree. I didn't really notice him in 1998, but in the next few years he became astounding. So whether it was Tarasova's tutelage, or just his awakening artistic maturity, or a combination of both, the "real" Yagudin was worth waiting for.

I also agree with your earlier point, that an athlete's medal haul can often depend on outside factors such as the strength of the field. Stojko was a statisticallly dominant skater, and he was very good. Lambiel is a great skater, though his actual medal count is lower. The great skaters are usually at least near the top, though they might not be the first-ranked one in every competition.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I agree. I didn't really notice him in 1998, but in the next few years he became astounding. So whether it was Tarasova's tutelage, or just his awakening artistic maturity, or a combination of both, the "real" Yagudin was worth waiting for.

I also agree with your earlier point, that an athlete's medal haul can often depend on outside factors such as the strength of the field. Stojko was a statisticallly dominant skater, and he was very good. Lambiel is a great skater, though his actual medal count is lower. The great skaters are usually at least near the top, though they might not be the first-ranked one in every competition.

I much prefer Lambiel to Plushenko.

But only in the world of pageants could we say Lambiel was a greater skater than Plushenko.

If we want to totally disregard any and all sporting aspects to figure skating then I am on board an Lambiel rules.

As to the "vodka" comment :sheesh:

Buttercup needs to consult with Tat since it was Tat who made it clear what a few bottles (actually I suspect it was cases) could do to a judging panel dominated by a certain federation and judges from the same continent. ;)
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I didn't say Lambiel was greater than Plushenko, Hernando. I said he was/is a great skater. As is Plushenko. Beyond that, I don't think I could quantify beyond putting them both in that illustrious group. It's not what I look at skating for. A great skater to me has technical ability, of course, but he/she might have weaknesses in some areas of that ability. The greatness comes in the interpretive powers combined with technical excellence. The way I look at it, a great skater can make you understand what skating is for. I'd say that mine was a minority opinion, but I've noticed that my "life list" of best singles skaters ever coincides with many other people's life lists: Curry, Cranston, Browning, Yagudin, Takahashi, Lambiel, Lynn, Kwan, Fleming, Asada, Kim, Sato, and a few others. Not in any particular order.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I dunno.....

Here is Elvis winning the WC almost 20 years ago. Kurt Browning's comments are interesting and very different from several GS fans. :think:

Kurt actually respected and feared the consistency Elvis brought to competitions :eek: (OK, a few girls/skating fans won't get that :laugh:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtefctPOl6Y&feature=related

When I see Elvis I sometimes think of think of Midori.

Not the prettiest or blessed with long limbs and natural grace.

But he did push the "sport" of figure skating forward.

And yes, as a martial artist I always liked how Elvis tried to bring his other passion to skating.

I remember seeing Elvis Live back in '94 and even though it was an exhibiton his 3A's were huge and had the crowd roaring. I can't say the same for a few other guys that were obvioulsy just skating for a "paycheck." zzzzzzzzzzz :disagree:


That was back when skating was still popular in USA.
 
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Jaana

Record Breaker
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Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
My feeling is that anytime anybody in any discipline heads into a major competition and one of their primary competitors is injured (let alone also having flu) that person could be considered fortunate. In the case of Ilia I would say he was extremely lucky Elvis was so far from being able to physically compete at his best.

Was Ilia also lucky in 1997-98 Champion Series Final where he won over Stojko? I got the impression that the judges prefered Ilia against Stojko.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
Was Ilia also lucky in 1997-98 Champion Series Final where he won over Stojko? I got the impression that the judges prefered Ilia against Stojko.

Whatever, I always admire the innovators more than the copycats.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Whatever, I always admire the innovators more than the copycats.

Yes, that "copycat" who was the first person ever to land a quad at the Olympics, who had one of the finest triple axels ever with a spread eagle as a transition into the jump, who skated from music as diverse as Jean-Michel Jarre, Aladdin, Faust, and the Addams Family instead of relying on the same two themes over and over again, and was the first person ever to dress up as a giraffe while skating to Gershwin. ;)

Yeah, what a total copycat. Who did he copy anyways?
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Yes, that "copycat" who was the first person ever to land a quad at the Olympics, who had one of the finest triple axels ever with a spread eagle as a transition into the jump, who skated from music as diverse as Jean-Michel Jarre, Aladdin, Faust, and the Addams Family instead of relying on the same two themes over and over again, and was the first person ever to dress up as a giraffe while skating to Gershwin. ;)

Yeah, what a total copycat. Who did he copy anyways?

Keep dreaming and maybe your dreams of Ilia will come true :biggrin:

You are little more than buttercup and medusa and the way they GUSH over joubert.

That is pageant talk and not sports talk.
 

Kitt

Final Flight
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Feb 1, 2007
Country
United-States
Since when is "first person ever to land a quad at the Olympics" not sports talk?
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Since when is "first person ever to land a quad at the Olympics" not sports talk?

And apparently stating that Ilia was doing a very fine spread eagle-3A, an extremely technically demanding move that (IIRC) nobody else was doing at the time, is pageant talk as well!

Now I want to know what "sports talk" is. And seriously, Hernando? By calling my statements about Ilia dreams, are you denying that they are true? Who landed a quad at the Olympics before Ilia? Are Ilia's programs to Jarre and Gounod's Faust just figments of my imagination? Was the whole 94-98 Olympics cycle just a hallucination?

At least, that'll explain why the majority of the men at the time were zzzz.....
 
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