Musicality: Natural vs Learned, Simple vs Complex

Buttercup and I were having a conversation about various programs we liked that essentially spiralled into a conversation about COP aesthetics, underrated skaters and musicality. We were hoping to get more people involved in this discussion, so here are the most relevant parts, edited for flow (like I said, we rather hopscotched around; the original discussion had even more examples). So here goes

”ImaginaryPogue” said:

A while ago, we were discussing musicality on the forums and you said something about finding Amodio the most musical skater currently competing. I wasn’t sure I agreed with you but what I find interesting in this discussion is the difference between natural and learned musicality.

There are skaters like Buttle, Abbott, Lambiel and Mao Asada who seem just naturally musical. They have a way of instinctively understanding those beats in the music and how to convey them, in terms of body and face (even Amodio’s Michael Jackson FP was a darker, more emotionally contentious take than what Verner or Bourne/Kraatz did in their programs). They’re often thrilling to watch. Then there are those that don’t seem quite so natural. They can be musical, but it’s harder and it’s more learned than natural. They love skating but aren’t natural performers. I’m thinking skaters like Yu Na Kim, Joannie Rochette and Patrick Chan off the top of my head. Their musicality interests me equally even though it’s often more intellectual than emotional.

To me, the team of Virtue/Moir epitomizes this difference. I don’t quite agree that Tessa has less range than Scott. I do think she has to work harder at her expression than he does, though. Even with something right inside their wheelhouse (Mahler), it took her until Canadians to really understand how to express the music without seeming too one note, whereas Scott took to it right away. The flamenco you mentioned. I was worried about how Tessa would do because she doesn’t have that high-toned, arrogant sexuality the piece needs, but by the Olympics, she more than matched Scott (check out her expression at the end of the straight line footwork sequence. She’s breathing fire). To me, the fact that the two FDs where they were furthest from their métier (Pink Floyd, Samba) were the ones where she had the least time to work on her expression. And even then I’d consider them both successful.

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”Buttercup” said:

(Regarding) Dai, I've said this before but something about his musical expression seems forced to me; I can't quite articulate what. But I have enjoyed some of his programs, such as his work with Kenji Miyamoto (it was the Bachelorette EX that really sold me on him). Both Dai and Stephane Lambiel do have charisma in spades.

What stands out about Amodio for me is his ability to "get" different types of music, how to express them, how to connect with the audience with different musical styles – he is just pitch perfect. That sort of innate musicality and understanding of musical expression is very rare. If I had to compare to Takahashi, the best I can do is that Dai seems to be overthinking it compared to Flo; it's more cerebral, like he's telling himself what to do. Florent just gets it in a way that doesn't require him to think at all; he's in the music and in the performance.

Your point about V/M in particular is a good one, and I'll keep it in mind when watching them skate in the future. I do still think that there are some things Tessa just can't do, but it's worth looking at how she expresses the music early in the season vs. toward the end. Scott is a natural – she has to work harder, and sometimes the difference can be jarring, but maybe I need to consider it as two complimentary styles rather than one being better than the other.

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”ImaginaryPogue” said:

Does “thinking it through/cerebral” mean “forced”, though? I agree that Amodio has an innate understanding of music which allows him to be in the music/performance that few skaters are capable of, but I think there’s a progression from “thinking-it-through” to “forced” (which, as we’re saving Joubert for the end of this instalment, will have to wait).

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”Buttercup” said:

During 2010 Worlds, someone (on FSU?) wrote that for the SP, Brian was the only skater who stayed on the beat throughout. Lightbulb moment for me: Brian skates to the beat, while many skaters considered musical skate primarily to the melody. I bet this is why he does so many techno-ish programs; that is his strength and what he responds to. I believe he is capable of good musical interpretation when he connects with the music on whatever level, but he’s not good when he’s trying to force himself into getting it (e.g. the LotM LP). Hallelujah was not at all his usual thing, but clearly he felt something for the music, and it showed (though in all honesty, the choreo was standard “quiet gala number” Joubert). So in his case, there is no “learned” musicality: either he gets it (even if not immediately) or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t, he can’t offer a remotely convincing musical interpretation. Whereas some skaters can learn to respond to/express music even if they don’t really connect with it. So I would classify Joubert as having natural musicality but a very specific type of it, unlike Stephane or Flo with their amazing range.

I thought his SP showed promise at the Masters but it never quite came together. He said right after Worlds that he regretted doing it, and later told IFS magazine that "Perhaps, I did just three or four clean run-throughs in practices overall... every mistake would mean I had to catch up with the music. It was stressful. I was concerned. I was very happy with Antonio Najarro’s flamenco, but if I stumbled during the routine, I had to cut out some of the moves and steps he crafted for me.”

I think he did eventually get his LP music, and that’s why he’s keeping it (also, he only skated it three times internationally, and two went quite well). I loved how he ended it at Worlds, after he landed the flip. By then he knows he can’t medal, and after he lands the 3F, he completely ignores his choreo for a few seconds to do his favorite exhibition move instead. In that moment, you can see how happy he is with the program, the performance, and the music. It’s not good CoP, but it’s just so joyful; very retro-Brian, in that respect. Though I could be reading too much into it. Then he botched the final spin, possibly because his hand was bleeding badly (he was spraying blood all over the place), but it’s a happy ending for the program and the season.

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” ImaginaryPogue” said:

I guess generally what bugs me about Joubert is that the techno he does choose tends to be all surface, so consequently, his skate is all surface. I mentioned “Hallelujah” and while the choreography might not have been unique, it seemed so for him. That and it came utterly out of left field. I tend not to rewatch ex programs, but that’s one I’ll revisit from time to time. I’m not sure how big a fan of techno you are (I’m somewhat in the middle), but imagine if he chose something densely layered like Basement Jaxx or contextually rich, like Moby (and if you are a big fan, I apologize for mentioning him).

And this brings me to another question: I’ve mentioned time and time again that I don’t believe in figure skating as art, I believe in it as sport. An aesthetic sport, to be sure, but still sport. So I wonder if my complaint about surface musicality really jives with that. But on the other hand, I compare Joubert’s “Matrix” with Buttle’s “Nagoyqaatsi” (both pieces of music that are from technology obsessed films), and Joubert entertains me whereas Buttle astonishes me (I find the besti-squat Buttle does one of the single best figure skating moments I can recall, and the whole thing has an incredible emotional tenor I’ve never experienced in the sport

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* Buttercup would like to add that she is not, in fact, a big fan of techno; she just thinks it's a good fit for Joubert's style, and agrees that Moby's music could work well for him.

I'll just add a couple of points about our discussion and why we thought to turn it into a thread...

The starting point for this exchange was a skater-specific thread, where I made a couple of comments about that led IP to ask me about skaters and programs that I had enjoyed over the years. One of the things that came up repeatedly in our PMs on this subject, as can be seen above, was musicality: which skaters can be considered musical? What does that really mean? Is it only about being a natural talent, like, say, Florent Amodio, or is it something that can be learned and developed over time? Is an ability to interpret across a broad range of musical styles necessary for skaters to be considered musical, or is it enough to have specific styles that one can interpret and express successfully?

Musicality is something that gets thrown into a lot of skating discussions, and we were trying to figure out what it means to us, and were then curious what it means to other people. In addition, though that's less apparent in the quotes IP used, we were interested in skaters who try different/unusual program concepts, and the differences between unique and creative programs and things that are just plain gimmicky.

Anyway, we figured we'd throw those questions and points out there, and see what other posters thought. Are there skaters whom you'd consider naturally musical beyond those we mentioned? Do you feel this is innate, or can it be developed? And how is it best expressed on the ice?

I am surprised that people can think and perceive so differently. YuNa is one of the most naturally musical skater I have ever seen. She has superb sense of music and beat. That is why she even jumps exactly with beats of the music. I think Joannie is naturally musical too. But, Mao is not. I think she has developed her musicality by training. Patrick is not either.

Musicality is like any other talent I think; there will always be those who just have a natural sense of music like Yu-na, Mao, Michelle, etc, and those who might not have so much raw talent but through hard work and careful attention as well as specially tailored choreography, can appear to be "musical". There will always be those skaters who can create art out of any piece of music and those who simply can't, at least not naturally, instinctively. That I think is the difference.

Excellent discussion.

Given the multitude of definitions of musicality out there I'm extremely tempted to answer this whole debate with how Potter Stewart defined pornography--I know it when I see it--but that of course won't help further this very stimulating discussion. Yet if at best we can only flail around and lob our own personal definitions for musicality, here's mine, as garbled as it is.

To me, musicality has its fundamental roots in interpretation. Music has a sort of dictated form--the rhythm, the beat, etc--but a musical person (person with musicality?) will add his/her sort of creative take to it, will internalize the nuances of the music and somehow illustrate it with their face and body.

But based on my personal experiences in playing instruments and dance, I don't believe anyone at all emerges with a sense of musicality fully-formed. What people often overlook, IMO, is how musicality combines together emotion/interpretation with technical skill. What we think of as musical instinct is largely rooted in years of solid training and practice. When playing the piano, for example, you don't think to yourself while performing on stage, "ok, play a crescendo here while emphasizing the melody in bass line with the left hand and with the right hand in a gentle staccato movement." To start really "feeling" the music and truly interpreting it, you need to practice over and over until the movements of your hands becomes so ingrained in you it feels like instinct--after all, isn't this what musicality is, the ability to seamlessly blend together movement with music in an instinctual and personal manner? Then at that point it's possible to stop consciously thinking of things like keeping to the beat and let yourself develop some sort of musical sensitivity. However, as a caveat, I think it's important to note that technical skill is second to interpretation--that is, a necessary but not sufficient element of musicality.

I would think that musicality is fairly similar in figure skating. For example, if your jumping technique isn't somewhat solid, it's not a surprise you don't seem very musical when performing because you're thinking everything through and much too focused on making sure you're on the right edge entering into the jump/you don't pop/etc instead of interpreting the music. The case of Stephane Lambiel is instructive. Stephane Lambiel is undeniably very musical now and is praised to the skies as innately musical, but in his earlier immature days, I really don't see it much (e.g. here at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvU_Y3uOIh8). However, as Lambiel developed his technique and matured, we eventually see his musicality in full bloom (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE1_0xd9A4k&hd=1). That being said, however, some people inherently seem to grasp the ability of responding to music much more easily, so maybe there is some sort of innate factor involved? But nonetheless, I think that if you really scrutinize carefully, musicality is more often than not nurtured, developed and perfected with time and training. Some skaters (e.g. Lambiel, Buttle) obviously put a lot of stock in how they move on ice, on how they interpret the shape of the phrases in music in order to convey a mood or theme to the audience. They clearly have trained this facet of their skating intensively so that their bodies seem to become an extension of the music itself. Others myopically focus on training jumps and making sure they skate their program cleanly above all.

evangeline said:

But based on my personal experiences in playing instruments and dance, I don't believe anyone at all emerges with a sense of musicality fully-formed. What people often overlook, IMO, is how musicality combines together emotion/interpretation with technical skill. What we think of as musical instinct is largely rooted in years of solid training and practice. When playing the piano, for example, you don't think to yourself while performing on stage, "ok, play a crescendo here while emphasizing the melody in bass line with the left hand and with the right hand in a gentle staccato movement." To start really "feeling" the music and truly interpreting it, you need to practice over and over until the movements of your hands becomes so ingrained in you it feels like instinct--after all, isn't this what musicality is, the ability to seamlessly blend together movement with music in an instinctual and personal manner? Then at that point it's possible to stop consciously thinking of things like keeping to the beat and let yourself develop some sort of musical sensitivity. However, as a caveat, I think it's important to note that technical skill is second to interpretation--that is, a necessary but not sufficient element of musicality.

I would think that musicality is fairly similar in figure skating. For example, if your jumping technique isn't somewhat solid, it's not a surprise you don't seem very musical when performing because you're thinking everything through and much too focused on making sure you're on the right edge entering into the jump/you don't pop/etc instead of interpreting the music.

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I agree that once the technical side of an art/craft becomes practiced and easy (easier), it provides a base from which other aspects of the performance/art can be developed, and personal expression can play a larger role. OTOH, is it always necessary to be technically accomplished to do so? I can imagine programs that maybe don't require exceptional technique, or at least, don't require that all the elements we associate with elite skating be included - but do provide skaters with the opportunity to do interesting things with the interpretation and the performance. Maybe this applies more in show skating, though, with none of the technical requirements a competitive skater must incorporate into the program. Think for instance of Kurt Browning's Nyah; obviously he has excellent technical abilities, but that program is much more about the performance and the connection to the music. Or Jeff Buttle's work as a show skater, which I find much more enjoyable than his competitive efforts.

The case of Stephane Lambiel is instructive. Stephane Lambiel is undeniably very musical now and is praised to the skies as innately musical, but in his earlier immature days, I really don't see it much (e.g. here at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvU_Y3uOIh8). However, as Lambiel developed his technique and matured, we eventually see his musicality in full bloom (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE1_0xd9A4k&hd=1). That being said, however, some people inherently seem to grasp the ability of responding to music much more easily, so maybe there is some sort of innate factor involved? But nonetheless, I think that if you really scrutinize carefully, musicality is more often than not nurtured, developed and perfected with time and training. Some skaters (e.g. Lambiel, Buttle) obviously put a lot of stock in how they move on ice, on how they interpret the shape of the phrases in music in order to convey a mood or theme to the audience. They clearly have trained this facet of their skating intensively so that their bodies seem to become an extension of the music itself. Others myopically focus on training jumps and making sure they skate their program cleanly above all.

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Stephane's presentation and musical expression did develop over time, but I do feel there was always a flair for performing, even if it needed to be nurtured and developed. Like the cat program he's so embarrassed of now - say what you will about it, it's certainly not run of the mill reacting to music. Even baby Stephane showed potential, and his professional career seems quite promising. I would argue that Stephane became more musical over time, but his innate abilities allowed him to develop this aspect of his skating to a greater extent than most others.

A while back Florent Amodio came up in a competition thread, and IP made the interesting observation that much of what Florent does on the ice is not an ice-specific talent; his musicality could have been developed in other ways, and it just so happens that he's expressing it as a figure skater. Maybe sometimes the talent is there to begin with, and in some cases, by the time we see skaters in competition their technical skills have had time to catch up with the artistic abilities - rather than vice versa?

I'm kind of thinking out loud here; apologies if it comes off as rambling (and there are so many skaters I haven't even mentioned yet! )

Buttercup said:

I agree that once the technical side of an art/craft becomes practiced and easy (easier), it provides a base from which other aspects of the performance/art can be developed, and personal expression can play a larger role. OTOH, is it always necessary to be technically accomplished to do so? I can imagine programs that maybe don't require exceptional technique, or at least, don't require that all the elements we associate with elite skating be included - but do provide skaters with the opportunity to do interesting things with the interpretation and the performance. Maybe this applies more in show skating, though, with none of the technical requirements a competitive skater must incorporate into the program. Think for instance of Kurt Browning's Nyah; obviously he has excellent technical abilities, but that program is much more about the performance and the connection to the music. Or Jeff Buttle's work as a show skater, which I find much more enjoyable than his competitive efforts.

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Kurt's Nyah may not have the jumps, but I would definitely argue that the program nonetheless required exceptional technique! For instance--the surety and quickness of his footwork--as well as his confidence--could only have been the result of superior skating skills. To be honest, when I was writing about the importance of technique, I was thinking about Michelle Kwan's exhibition programs above all--e.g. Winter, Fields of Gold, Dante's Prayer, East of Eden, etc. They might not have been intricate as some of her competitive programs and did not feature many jumps, but the sheer beauty, the expression and connection to the music, her (excuse the cliche) ability to take the audience on an emotional journey with her--all this was made possible or at very least facilitated by the superb control permitted by her mastery of the blade. She (and Kurt, for that matter) could really interpret and emote and do so many interesting things precisely because they can control their edges so well.

And about Stephane--I do think that he has some sort of nebulous innate ability--so I think we can agree that musicality is not a dichotomous black/white sort of ability, but I am struggling about how much of musicality can be attributed to innate ability vs. extensive training and practice.

A while back Florent Amodio came up in a competition thread, and IP made the interesting observation that much of what Florent does on the ice is not an ice-specific talent; his musicality could have been developed in other ways, and it just so happens that he's expressing it as a figure skater. Maybe sometimes the talent is there to begin with, and in some cases, by the time we see skaters in competition their technical skills have had time to catch up with the artistic abilities - rather than vice versa?

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The point made about Florent is interesting and throws yet another loop into this chicken-eggish discussion. I will ruminate on this and post my thoughts shortly.

cosmos said:

I am surprised that people can think and perceive so differently. YuNa is one of the most naturally musical skater I have ever seen. She has superb sense of music and beat. That is why she even jumps exactly with beats of the music. I think Joannie is naturally musical too. But, Mao is not. I think she has developed her musicality by training. Patrick is not either.

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It's interesting you say that. About Kim, the first thing that comes to mind is "El Tango de Roxanne." That program is rightly considered one of the great shorts of our time, but we tend to forget that she kept it for two seasons and often had trouble with the expression, particularly in her first season. She had to learn how to express herself. With Joannie, it's slightly different. Partially I can sense her thinking her program through for a good portion of the season before it clicks on. That's not to say she isn't musical: I think her "Aranjuez" is a masterpiece, but it doesn't seem quite inate (though that's probably just as much due to the fact that her programs are clearly well thought out and she herself seems thoughtful). Whereas with Mao, I see her so naturally expressive (within a certain range - aka, not Tarasova competitive programs) that I tend to give her that credit.

With Chan, it's more noteworthy with programs outside his wheelhouse: Phantom and Take Five. His current wheelhouse, where he's most natural (imo) is the densely subtle choices - I'm think Exilados or his Rach piece. POTO is an outsized melodrama that really doesn't suit him. However, over the course of two seasons he learned to express it better, even if it never reached the artistice heights we'd like a champion to hit. His performance at Nationals was jaw-dropping, with a half dozen well timed little flourishes that I enjoyed, but they weren't natural in the sense I don't think he would've necessarily felt of putting THAT movement THERE (the pose before the 2A, the leap after the 3F... maybe he would've opened his footwork with the hitch-kick, but would he have nailed the two-tone emotional tenor of it?)

evangeline said:

Kurt's Nyah may not have the jumps, but I would definitely argue that the program nonetheless required exceptional technique! For instance--the surety and quickness of his footwork--as well as his confidence--could only have been the result of superior skating skills. To be honest, when I was writing about the importance of technique, I was thinking about Michelle Kwan's exhibition programs above all--e.g. Winter, Fields of Gold, Dante's Prayer, East of Eden, etc. They might not have been intricate as some of her competitive programs and did not feature many jumps, but the sheer beauty, the expression and connection to the music, her (excuse the cliche) ability to take the audience on an emotional journey with her--all this was made possible or at very least facilitated by the superb control permitted by her mastery of the blade. She (and Kurt, for that matter) could really interpret and emote and do so many interesting things precisely because they can control their edges so well.

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Oh, I never meant to suggest that Nyah doesn't require a lot of technical ability, and of course the confidence Kurt developed in his many years on the ice helps him as a performer. More along the lines of, he did not need a full complement of competitive-level technical skills to skate that program.

Perhaps a better way to approach this question would be to consider skaters who are very good at musical expression despite not having the strongest technical arsenal: two examples that come to mind are Jonathan Cassar and Fleur Maxwell, and it's always disappointing to see their PCS suffer from not being able to do more difficult jumps. In ice dance, I don't know if it's musicality in the traditional sense, but Hurtado and Diaz seem to me like natural performers, even though their skating skills and some of their elements still require quite a bit of polish.

ImaginaryPogue said:

It's interesting you say that. About Kim, the first thing that comes to mind is "El Tango de Roxanne." That program is rightly considered one of the great shorts of our time, but we tend to forget that she kept it for two seasons and often had trouble with the expression, particularly in her first season. She had to learn how to express herself.

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I agree. I greatly admire Yu-Na's abilities, and I don't think it's a slight to say that she had to learn how to express certain types of music; it's a testament to her talent that she's been able to do it so well - as well as a credit to her coaches and choreographers, who helped her with that process.

cosmos said:

I am surprised that people can think and perceive so differently. YuNa is one of the most naturally musical skater I have ever seen. She has superb sense of music and beat. That is why she even jumps exactly with beats of the music. I think Joannie is naturally musical too. But, Mao is not. I think she has developed her musicality by training. Patrick is not either.

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I agree with you about YuNa; she is indeed musical, and I love her for it, but I have to put in a word for Mao. She had music in her the first moment I saw her skate, at the 2006 Grand Prix finals I believe. Such lightness of movement...I had expected a mere jumping bean, but she already had "It," and what she had and has can't be taught. It can grow, and it certainly has in her case, but the original spark came from within.

Musicality is a tricky term to define. It is often confused with expressiveness. The two share similarities but they are not the same. A skater can be musical but not as expressive and vice versa. To me, musicality entails the movements of the body. There are some skaters who I still consider great performers despite not having natural body movements because they compensate for it with their natural expressiveness and presence on the ice.

ImaginaryPogue said:

It's interesting you say that. About Kim, the first thing that comes to mind is "El Tango de Roxanne." That program is rightly considered one of the great shorts of our time, but we tend to forget that she kept it for two seasons and often had trouble with the expression, particularly in her first season. She had to learn how to express herself.

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Is there any skater that expresses well without any training at all. Every skater you see on ice learned how to express. YuNa had very poor training of expression in Korea. Still, her Tango in 2006 Jr. Worlds was greatly musical and expressive (surely was more musical than Mao.).

cosmos said:

Is there any skater that expresses well without any training at all. YuNa had practically no training of expression in Korea. Still, her Tango in 2006 Jr. Worlds was greatly musical and expressive (surely was more musical than Mao.).

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Well, of course, every skater has to have time to grow into the program. I think what the poster is saying is that it took Yuna longer to grow into the role as opposed to, say, MK in 1997 with Dream of Desdemona, she had to play a Shakespeare character in a fictional continuation of one of his classics (no small task there), but from the very beginning she was "in the role".

Why compare to Mao? IP didn't bring her up...

cosmos said:

Is there any skater that expresses well without any training at all. YuNa had practically no training of expression in Korea. Still, her Tango in 2006 Jr. Worlds was greatly musical and expressive (surely was more musical than Mao.).

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Her Tango SP was choreographed by Tom Dickson, whom I consider a greater choreographer than Wilson. I'm sure she received instructions from him.

burntBREAD said:

Well, of course, every skater has to have time to grow into the program. I think what the poster is saying is that it took Yuna longer to grow into the role as opposed to, say, MK in 1997 with Dream of Desdemona, she had to play a Shakespeare character in a fictional continuation of one of his classics (no small task there), but from the very beginning she was "in the role".

Why compare to Mao? IP didn't bring her up...

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Because YuNa competed with Mao in 2006 Jr. Worlds and he/she thinks Mao is naturally musical.

Even MK had a pre-1996 jumping-bean period. Don't forget that. And, I don't think playing character is directly related to musicality. It is an acting not musicality.

miki88 said:

Her Tango SP was choreographed by Tom Dickson, whom I consider a greater choreographer than Wilson. I'm sure she received instructions from him.

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Yes, a week or so. (I am not sure about the exact number of days though)

miki88 said:

Musicality is a tricky term to define. It is often confused with expressiveness. The two share similarities but they are not the same. A skater can be musical but not as expressive and vice versa. To me, musicality entails the movements of the body. There are some skaters who I still consider great performers despite not having natural body movements because they compensate for it with their natural expressiveness and presence on the ice.

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ITA that musicality and expressiveness are different things. I'd say that Tessa has always been very musical. (She and Scott have always had excellent timing in CD's, for instance, right back to juvenile days - while still kids they were chosen to demonstrate CD's in ISU videos. She also moves her body in a very natural way.)

She's reserved though (whereas Scott is extroverted), so in terms of expressiveness it's taken her a little longer to come out of her shell as a performer. She's still very young for an ice dancer - she's the youngest of the top ladies, having just turned 22 - and has developed enormously in this area in the past three years, IMO. I hope she's still skating at 25 so we can see her then.

ETA: Although I can envision more expressiveness from Tessa as she matures, I still feel she's every bit as strong in this area as the other ladies at the very top today (and stronger than some). So I've often wondered about the motivations of those who criticize her - perhaps they could put their own favourites under the same critical lens.

miki88 said:

Musicality is a tricky term to define. It is often confused with expressiveness. The two share similarities but they are not the same. A skater can be musical but not as expressive and vice versa. To me, musicality entails the movements of the body. There are some skaters who I still consider great performers despite not having natural body movements because they compensate for it with their natural expressiveness and presence on the ice.

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Yes, that is a useful distinction. A skater can be both, or one, or neither - and not even necessarily for all types of music!

callalily said:

She's reserved though (whereas Scott is extroverted), so in terms of expressiveness it's taken her a little longer to come out of her shell as a performer. She's still very young for an ice dancer - she's the youngest of the top ladies, having just turned 22 - and has developed enormously in this area in the past three years, IMO. I hope she's still skating at 25 so we can see her then.

ETA: Although I can envision more expressiveness from Tessa as she matures, I still feel she's every bit as strong in this area as the other ladies at the very top today (and stronger than some). So I've often wondered about the motivations of those who criticize her - perhaps they could put their own favourites under the same critical lens.

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Assuming one considers Maia Shibutani a top lady in ice dance - and two GP medals, a 4CC medal and a Worlds medal say she is - Tessa is not the youngest.

I think for me, when I look at Tessa as someone whose connection to the music is often more learned than innate, I'm not comparing her to the other ladies in ice dance - I'm comparing her to Scott. He's the one who's on the ice with her and he seems to be much more of a natural when it comes to skating to diverse musical styles. Tessa - when not skating to something more classical - looks to me like she needs more time to understand what she's skating to and how to reflect it in her performances.

My own favorites in ice dance are P/B, and I am well aware of their strengths and weaknesses compared to other teams; my assessment of them didn't make it into the thread, but was part of the PM discussion that led to it. For instance, if I were to compare Tessa and Nathalie, I feel Tessa is more graceful and elegant, and often has better lines, while Nathalie is more expressive and a marvelous performer - something of an actress on the ice. The only time I saw both teams live, V/M were certainly ahead technically, though at least online/tv viewing leads me to believe that this gap has narrowed since.

This blog post has some relevancy in the whole expression and musicality discussion in relation to Liza T and Adelina.

http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/2011/08/ahead-of-curve.html

I like this blog and I agree, both of them are lacking in those areas but do have time to catch up...

miki88 said:

Her Tango SP was choreographed by Tom Dickson, whom I consider a greater choreographer than Wilson. I'm sure she received instructions from him.

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Tango changed a lot from its debut 'till its 2007 Worlds performance; there was a lot of tweaking going on and David Wilson was responsible for much of it. Plus, Wilson was the one who really encouraged Yu-na to open up in terms of expression.

The way I see it, Yu-na was simply a later bloomer than Mao. And yet while her face might not be as expressive back then, her body language certainly was; I remember watching her SP to Snowstorm back in 2004 and was impressed by how fluid and graceful, if not a little gangly her movements already were.