Greatest short programs in ladies' figure skating

Olympia · Sep 9, 2011

Interesting point about Giselle being theatrical, parma. I presume you don't just mean based on theater, but also building a character and a complete narrative arc for that character. I'm trying to think of other "theatrical" skating programs, and one that comes to mind is Michelle's "Salome" long program. Most of the Carmen-based programs that skaters have done go in that direction, of course, but not all that successfully in my opinion.

If you just mean theatrical as in a theatrical presentation, maybe Baiul's Swan Lake SP is one of the best examples. The choreography, as well as Oksana's interpretation, really exploited the balletic connections. It's my favorite of all her programs.

I guess Paul Wylie's Henry V is another one (1992 Olympic long program, Albertville). His footwork actually involved a sword fight. Wylie tended to build rather literal programs and use music with a strong narrative element, especially during his pro career. He was very effective at creating a character's emotional connection to the storyline--JFK and Schindler's List come to mind. Don't know if I'm drifting off the topic, but these examples show how high the standards are for that kind of program. YuNa certainly belongs in that exalted group.

OS · Sep 9, 2011

I am not Parma, but I did comment on the theatrical presentation aspect on another post as well

For me Giselle is an old school type of program. It is interesting that all the wonderful example you mentioned Olympia, they were examples from the 6.0 era, where bravery in artistry is well rewarded and appreciated.

Imho, Giselle set itself apart from most of today's COP program because its sheer ambition of character building and story telling in a short program and not a long program. The performance is clearly focused more on the expressions than the technicality (I don't think Yuna even did her point worthy signature layback camel spin. Why?). I am wondering if that is one of the reasons it hasn't quite worked with many of the sports enthusiasts that watched at home because they are used to certain type of COP designed programs, that highlight more on the technical delivery, where the expressions were an afterthought and certainly much more subdued.

The difference between theatrical performances vs film/television performances are obvious. Theatrical performances are far more exaggerated, the make up, the body language, the facial expressions, it is not 'less is more', but 'more is more'! These type of theatrical performances are about conveying the emotions to the very last person sitting at the back of the theater/stadium to know exactly what the performers are trying to say or feel. It is not designed for camera close ups to be viewed on a 15-32 inch screen. Whether it is successful, the people who experienced live in the auditorium has a far more valid opinion than those who saw it only at close up.

Given Giselle has a heritage that rests strongly in the theater as a ballet/play (just as the example you have given Olympia), that is why for me this direction of exaggerated performance is justified and actually perfectly warranted.

Whether we'd like to admit it, but competitive sports and dramatic arts has always had an awkwardly relationship next to each other if you really think about it.

Jocks vs the arts club vs the music geeks!

Goodness, no wonder figure skating has always caused so much controversy, disagreements and upsets....

Blades of Passion · Sep 9, 2011

Midori did a Flip. Not sure what the confusion is. She easily deserved 1st for that SP, though.

parma · Sep 9, 2011

Olympia said:
Interesting point about Giselle being theatrical, parma. I presume you don't just mean based on theater, but also building a character and a complete narrative arc for that character. I'm trying to think of other "theatrical" skating programs, and one that comes to mind is Michelle's "Salome" long program. Most of the Carmen-based programs that skaters have done go in that direction, of course, but not all that successfully in my opinion.

If you just mean theatrical as in a theatrical presentation, maybe Baiul's Swan Lake SP is one of the best examples. The choreography, as well as Oksana's interpretation, really exploited the balletic connections. It's my favorite of all her programs.

I guess Paul Wylie's Henry V is another one (1992 Olympic long program, Albertville). His footwork actually involved a sword fight. Wylie tended to build rather literal programs and use music with a strong narrative element, especially during his pro career. He was very effective at creating a character's emotional connection to the storyline--JFK and Schindler's List come to mind. Don't know if I'm drifting off the topic, but these examples show how high the standards are for that kind of program. YuNa certainly belongs in that exalted group.

Thanks for the great references. I will go check out some of the programs you mentioned. When I said Giselle being theatrical, I meant your first point. I suspect that David Wilson probably had some loose plot line taken from the last part of Act 1 of Giselle. I think I can break the program down into four small parts. The fast paced intro where she goes through her 3 triples could be related to pre-revelation period when Giselle is in love with Albrecht. The slow grim part that follows may be related to her finding out about Albrecht's true identity and going mad (the wield waist-twisting move and all), stabbing herself (obviously there). Then follows a soft pleasant part which may show Giselle reflecting her happy past. The last part that comes after her Biellmann might be depicting Giselle before her death, and it ends with her death (the last pose, which was confirmed by Wilson in an interview).

Correct or not, I find watching her performance on Youtube with this "plot line" in the back of my mind more interesting .

os168 said:
For me Giselle is an old school type of program. It is interesting that all the wonderful example you mentioned Olympia, they were examples from the 6.0 era, where bravery in artistry is well rewarded and appreciated.

Imho, Giselle set itself apart from most of today's COP program because its sheer ambition of character building and story telling in a short program and not a long program. The performance is clearly focused more on the expressions than the technicality (I don't think Yuna even did her point worthy signature layback camel spin. Why?). I am wondering if that is one of the reasons it hasn't quite worked with many of the sports enthusiasts that watched at home because they are used to certain type of COP designed programs, that highlight more on the technical delivery, where the expressions were an afterthought and certainly much more subdued.

I agree. David Wilson tries to avoid making conventional programs as much as possible, and this program seems to be another example of his such effort.

Blades of Passion · Sep 9, 2011

I have no idea what you're talking about with regard to Giselle not being focused on the technical. That program is a complete slave to the CoP rules and I don't really see anything "old school" about it at all. The placement of the elements (aside from the 2Axel, to some extent) is not interesting or different at all. Open with the two hardest jumping passes, then do some easier moves, then dramatic pause before the overlong, convoluted footwork sequence and end with the combination spin jammed near the end of the boards. Boring.

parma · Sep 10, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
I have no idea what you're talking about with regard to Giselle not being focused on the technical. That program is a complete slave to the CoP rules and I don't really see anything "old school" about it at all. The placement of the elements (aside from the 2Axel, to some extent) is not interesting or different at all. Open with the two hardest jumping passes, then do some easier moves, then dramatic pause before the overlong, convoluted footwork sequence and end with the combination spin jammed near the end of the boards. Boring.

Blades of Passion, what is your problem? Did you even read Olympia's point about the program's character building and storytelling aspect, which is rare in today's short programs, and that contributes to the impression that the program is focused more on expression as it was in the old days? Why don't you stop whining and picking on a skater's program and start introducing other programs that you think deserve to be appreciated by people here, as the thread title suggests? Gees.

Blades of Passion · Sep 10, 2011

Hrm? I'm trying to discuss here. It feels to me like people are calling Taco Bell (metaphor) quality Mexican food. I have to disagree, as that is simply an unhealthy viewpoint to me and runs counter to (my perspective of) good sensibility. :eek:

parma · Sep 10, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
Hrm? I'm trying to discuss here. It feels to me like people are calling Taco Bell (metaphor) quality Mexican food. I have to disagree, as that is simply an unhealthy viewpoint to me and runs counter to (my perspective of) good sensibility.

Seeing the way you jump in our conversation about a program that we are fans of when the thread title implies that doing so is unnecessary, I am getting an impression that you either know one or two things about figure skating programs or are just hungry for attention.

Since you clearly suggested that we have cheap taste, let's hear from a person of "good sensibility" and authority what makes a good quality Mexican food, a stupid analogy by the way (to my good sensibility), of figure skating programs and exactly why you see that way.

Don't just throw youtube links as you did before about Kostner programs. Give specific program names done by skaters other than Kim as examples and your reasons.

OS · Sep 10, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
I have no idea what you're talking about with regard to Giselle not being focused on the technical. That program is a complete slave to the CoP rules and I don't really see anything "old school" about it at all. The placement of the elements (aside from the 2Axel, to some extent) is not interesting or different at all. Open with the two hardest jumping passes, then do some easier moves, then dramatic pause before the overlong, convoluted footwork sequence and end with the combination spin jammed near the end of the boards. Boring.

Of course it is a slave to the Cop rule, it is a competition program designed for a Cop competition not a 6.0 competition, and it must able to stack enough points to be at least in contention.

Nevertheless, the underlying concept of the program is very old school in the its emphasis on the theatrical dramatics and story telling. Everyone else probably don't even enough time or energy to do that.

In a short program of 2mins 40 seconds, without getting the hard stuff out of the way, how do one even begin to have time convey a character or a story line? As for the the structure, while it is a slave to the system, it is no different than the strategy adapted by Miki (arghh i hate to admit that), if that is what it will take to win and score these days, ie/ something for you something for me etc.

ImaginaryPogue · Sep 10, 2011

1. I take umbrage to people disparaging Blades of Passion just because he disagrees. He has often stated his POV in eloquent detail about various programs, right down his notions of how to improve them.

2. It's worth pointing out that the program he picks as is favourite Kim program, Roxanne, isn't as slavish in the COP element order (isn't the spiral her second move?).

3. Not that he needs me to defend him.

OS · Sep 10, 2011

Not at all... I completely respect BoP's candid opinion, but that is just an opinion.

I am just wondering if some of the criticism were entirely fair given the type of program that would meet his incredible standards would rarely happen in the current COP climate. Interesting he mentioned Roxanne, because that was done in 2005, just after the transition time of 6.0 to COP standard of judging, therefore in theory, it would inherit greater attention to details including a nice balanced of artistic / technical, far more now the established standard that strongly favours on the success of technical delivery.

Even one of my favourite LP Lark Ascending were from that period too. What does that say? Has the general standard of choreography gone bad to lazy to worse - even it still win medals after medals?

In some ways, every program tends to be a product of their times. The choreographer would design their program with different intention / concepts in mind, for particular athlete to perform their best for particular competitive environment. (Look at Miki's success this year? His coach/choreographer made the right call, even the program totally unmemorable without much to say but got the job done.) Without considering these other factors, would surely take away the reasons to explain why things are the way they were, that's all.

Blades of Passion · Sep 10, 2011

os168 said:
Nevertheless, the underlying concept of the program is very old school in the its emphasis on the theatrical dramatics and story telling. Everyone else probably don't even enough time or energy to do that.

In a short program of 2mins 40 seconds, without getting the hard stuff out of the way, how do one even begin to have time convey a character or a story line?

If you haven't noticed, they took an element out of the Short Program last season. The spiral sequence for the Women and one of the footwork sequences for the Men. These elements are time-consuming and with them suddenly gone from the SP, but the program time remaining the same, there is now a significant amount of extra "empty time" left open in the Short Program for choreography.

Conveying a concrete character or story line in the SP is not "old school" because the SP has always been about the technical elements first and everything else second. Even aside from that, the time limitation of the SP inherently goes against such a thing to begin with. The LP is where people would much more often try and take a literal approach like that to a program.

With the extra amount of open time skaters now have in the SP, it has become quite common for some kind of overt story to be attempted. Look at all of these SP's from last year: Mirai Nagagu, Patrick Chan, Tomas Verner, Yu-Na Kim. It's becoming *the thing to do* in the SP now. I would argue that all of those attempts I just named, btw, were unsuccessful. A few poses and a bunch of laborious CoP footwork and spinning does not a story make.

As for needing to "get the hard stuff out of the way" in order to tell a story, that's not true at all. It's actually the opposite IMO. There is not much story involved with opening your program in some brief pose and then immediately ignoring the music and character and just getting your two most difficult jumping passes out of the way. In Yu-Na's "Roxanne" program, her Lutz didn't come until more than halfway through the program. It's a lot more exciting when a program has big elements throughout, not just right at the beginning.

Considering how relatively short the Short Program is, there is absolutely NO excuse for skaters to front-load their jumps so heavily, as has become the standard (and it isn't being properly penalized by the judges in the Choreography and Interpretation scores). Skaters have to do far more jumping passes in the LP, stretched out across a far longer space of time. The way Short Programs are constructed these days is LAZY, BORING, and UNIMAGINATIVE.

The Long Programs in this era tend to be better, but they too are generally very formulaic and not as inventive as they really should be. Zzzzzzzz.

OS · Sep 10, 2011

You said better than I. My view of "old school" wasn't what SP was old school but more of the idea of an more artistic balanced program with the technical, such as were the requirement of the 6.0 era. Giselle is highly ambitious and even counter intuitive against what SP 'have the the time' to do. This program challenges the notion of 'is it possible to show good technicality as well as artistry and story telling in a SP?'

Given all the environmental constraint, cop requirement, trends. It is as close to an ambitious SP program as one can get this season.

Considering how relatively short the Short Program is, there is absolutely NO excuse for skaters to front-load their jumps so heavily, as has become the standard (and it isn't being properly penalized by the judges in the Choreography and Interpretation scores). Skaters have to do far more jumping passes in the LP, stretched out across a far longer space of time. The way Short Programs are constructed these days is LAZY, BORING, and UNIMAGINATIVE.

You have answered my question right there, it is not applicable just to Giselle but it applies to practically all of today's SP programs.

Look, I can see they are attempting to change that, except maybe structurally it hasn't really pushed the envelope as much as it can, but realistically with all the requirements and constraints on time, just how far can one pushes it as well as fulfilling the ambitious design brief?!

Imaginative creative interesting program don't get rewarded these days, the one that can complete all the elements do. Whatever frills and trimmings the athlete/choreographer does outside these requirements are merely bonuses. Sad as it is, but it is the current standard.

I personally think in its ambition to tell a story, with character building + COP requirements in only 2 mins 40s, it might have has sabotaged it self by its sheer ambition. But that doesn't mean people can't appreciate it for what it is trying to do. While for some, Giselle might be a little under cooked, its structure might even be contrived to the 'rare connoisseurs', but the highlights are well worth reviewing and appreciated for what it is.

brightphoton · Sep 10, 2011

os168 said:
Look, I can see they are attempting to change that, except maybe structurally it hasn't really pushed the envelope as much as it can, but realistically with all the requirements and constraints on time, just how far can one pushes it as well as fulfilling the ambitious design brief?!

Imaginative creative interesting program don't get rewarded these days, the one that can complete all the elements do. Whatever frills and trims the athlete/choreographer do afterwards are merely bonuses. Sad as it is, but it is the standard.

I personally think in its ambition to tell a story, with character building + COP requirements in only 2 mins 40s, it might have has sabotaged it self by its sheer ambition. But that doesn't mean people can't appreciate it for what it is trying to do. While for some, Giselle might be a little under cooked, its structure might even be contrived to the 'rare connoisseurs', but the highlights are well worth reviewing and appreciated for what it is.

If you compare Yuna's short programs, they all have the same structure. Triple-triple, solo triple, (spiral sequence), spin, footwork, axel, end with a spin, either a biellmann or an I spin. That's true to an extent to other other lady skaters too, although I feel the European girls sometimes mix up the sequence of elements a little bit more. It's rare to see much deviation from that structure. I don't know why people don't end their programs with a step sequence, or an axel like John Curry did in his Olympics long.

What makes Giselle and Homage particularly disappointing and bland is that general feeling you take away from the program is "must do elements correctly, concentrate, concentrate!" Besides the forced choreographed movements of ballet releves and clutching her uterus, there was no effort put into presentation or telling a story or whatever. And before anyone says its the CoP's fault, this wasn't a problem in Yuna's previous programs. It's no Lark Ascending, or even Roxanne.

On the other hand, it doesn't matter to a great extent. As long as the jumps and other elements are done correctly, a skater will receive points and probably win.

parma · Sep 10, 2011

brightphoton said:
What makes Giselle and Homage particularly disappointing and bland is that general feeling you take away from the program is "must do elements correctly, concentrate, concentrate!" Besides the forced choreographed movements of ballet releves and clutching her uterus, there was no effort put into presentation or telling a story or whatever.

You are either blind or, to borrow from Blades of Passion's ridiculous analogy and arrogance, just can't tell a good quality food from Taco Bell. All the storytelling, presentation and nuances are flying right there in front of your eyes whenever you replay the Giselle program. Or you just refuse to see them because, who knows. Just my opinion.

And why don't you start giving program names you think is worth being shared by people here? All you did in this thread was demonstrating your fixation on Kim's body part. Didn't I tell you to take that trashy crap to somewhere else?

By the way, I am still waiting for program lists done by other skaters and expert insights from Blades of Passion, the person of good sensibility. Prove you know what good Mexican food is and we don't, and that you are not just another attention beggar. In discussing the Giselle program, Blades of Passion insisted her teams' attempt to tell a story didn't work when many here think they pulled it off, but BoP didn't say why it didn't other than saying it didn't. Give specifics of why that is. And don't mix storytelling with jump layouts because the one has little to do with the other. Let's hear it from the person of good sensibility.

evangeline · Sep 10, 2011

Parma, I'm not Blades of Passion by I find your responses to his arguments very off-putting and not conducive to debate at all. You demand him to respond to you, but you don't respond to his arguments besides some ad hominem attacks and some sweeping statements about how he's clearly wrong and you're right without saying why.

parma said:
And don't mix storytelling with jump layouts because the one has little to do with the other.

Wrong. Jump layout is an integral part of choreography, and choreography is an integral part of storytelling in skating. E.g. a skater is not doing much storytelling if the first minute of a program is simply crossovers-jump-crossovers-jump-crossovers.

chloepoco · Sep 10, 2011

evangeline said:
Parma, I'm not Blades of Passion by I find your responses to his arguments very off-putting and not conducive to debate at all. You demand him to respond to you, but you don't respond to his arguments besides some ad hominem attacks and some sweeping statements about how he's clearly wrong and you're right without saying why.
[/QUOTE

ITA.

And back to the topic of this thread, my pick for greatest short program is Midori Ito's 1988 Olympic SP....what an exciting program that was!

parma · Sep 10, 2011

evangeline said:
Parma, I'm not Blades of Passion by I find your responses to his arguments very off-putting and not conducive to debate at all. You demand him to respond to you, but you don't respond to his arguments besides some ad hominem attacks and some sweeping statements about how he's clearly wrong and you're right without saying why.

Wrong. Jump layout is an integral part of choreography, and choreography is an integral part of storytelling in skating. E.g. a skater is not doing much storytelling if the first minute of a program is simply crossovers-jump-crossovers-jump-crossovers.

Uh, where exactly did I say Blades of Passion was wrong and I was right? :rolleye:

BoP was the one who brought the right/wrong game to this thread and attacked me and others saying we are Taco-Bell tasted and he/she is right. Since BoP took it to that alley, it only fits that I demand BoP prove he indeed has better taste than me and others.

No, you are Wrong. Jump passages only take a small part of the entire program and a program can convey stories with or without jumps, or wherever they put them. Jumps can function as exclamation points within choreography, but jumps by themselves don't say much because it isn't mime. Some skaters even leave jumps out of their gala programs because they think jumps can be distraction in the flow. Are you saying ice dancing programs by design have no ability of carrying good storylines because of lack of jumps? Nonsense.

Again you are Wrong; In the opening sequence of Giselle where Kim goes through her combo and a flip, there are so many things going on in between the jumps with upper body movements and steps that match the intense music, and saying she is only just knocking out jumps and doing crossovers for the first 1 minute is utterly misleading.

bigsisjiejie · Sep 10, 2011

Well, I happen to agree with Blades on this. Composition/choreography-wise, the best SP Kim has done in the past few years (worthy of being considered as one of the 'greats" of Ladies SPs) is Roxanne. Followed by Danse Macabre. Both well-performed technically and artistically. I don't think the others (Fledermaus, Bond, Giselle) are worthy of consideration in the All-Time Great SP category. All are COP programs, but something is lacking in either choreography or execution or both, and even though World medal worthy, they certainly aren't sticking around in my memory banks. Yuna is very very good, but not everything that comes off her skates rates a Brilliant.

More generally, I don't think there are that many ladies' SP's done under COP that really are All-Time Greats, even if performed really well. I don't know if it's the limitations or laziness of choreographers, limitations of skaters who insist on performing elements in a certain order to keep in a comfort zone, or what. It's easy to resort to formula, but I'm reluctant to blame the COP itself--even under 6.0, there were the required elements that had to be fitted into 2:30 time limit. Yet somehow there was a lot more creativity and "magic" in those programs...which to me, is a component of being put on the Greats list.

evangeline · Sep 10, 2011

Well, I'll try to go through this step by step.

parma said:
Uh, where exactly did I say Blades of Passion was wrong and I was right? BoP was the one who brought the right/wrong game to this thread and attacked me and others saying we are Taco-Bell tasted and he/she is right. Since BoP took it to that alley, it only fits that I demand BoP prove he indeed has better taste than me and others.

You may not have explicitly stated that Blades of Passion was wrong and that you are right, but generally when you call a person who has a different opinion disparaging names (e.g. "attention beggar"), it's obvious that you think that other person is wrong and that you are right.

parma said:
No, you are Wrong. Jump passages only take a small part of the entire program and a program can convey stories with or without jumps, or wherever they put them. Jumps can function as exclamation points within choreography, but jumps by themselves don't say much because it isn't mime. Some skaters even leave jumps out of their gala programs because they think jumps can be distraction in the flow. Are you saying ice dancing programs by design have no ability of carrying good storylines because of lack of jumps? Nonsense.

Um, no. The subject in question here are ladies competitive figure skating short programs, so my statement about how jump layout is integral to choreography and thus storytelling is meant to apply to ladies competitive figure skating short programs, where jumping passes are absolutely mandatory. Jumping passes may be but one component out of many in a short program, but given the time devoted to their set-up and their overall importance in a short program, where and when you insert a jump in a short program has significant effects on the choreography and overall arc of a short program.

parma said:
Again you are Wrong; In the opening sequence of Giselle where Kim goes through her combo and a flip, there are so many things going on in between the jumps with upper body movements and steps that match the intense music, and saying she is only just knocking out jumps and doing crossovers for the first 1 minute is utterly misleading.

When did I ever say that Yu-Na's Giselle was only crossovers-jump-crossovers-jump-crossovers? I was using the example of frontloading--any skater frontloading--as an instance when jump layout affects the choreography and presentation of a program. Since you seem to be very sensitive on the subject of Yu-Na, I'll use another skater as an example of why jump layout is so important in choreography and 'storytelling.'

Watch Alena Leonova's new SP here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5RjlDFWuWM

It's clear from the music and posing that Alena is portraying the part of a sexy swashbuckling pirate. Great. However, see how the first minute of the program is mostly just Alena stroking to the two ends of the rink and doing all three of her jumping passes? Not much storytelling there in that first minute, until perhaps after her layback spin. This is how jump layout can really affect choreography (and god, the ice coverage of this SP is TERRIBLE) and how (in the words of ISU) the "aesthetic pursuit of the composition" Alena is trying to present can suffer for it. Where is the proper spreading of elements evenly through the program? How does having such a terribly front-loaded jump layout "maintain the character and style of the music throughout the entire program"? She's doing nothing but stroking and jumping; it might as well be a warm-up session...

So, to sum it up, jump layout MATTERS in choreography and the overall composition of the program. For an example of an excellent storytelling and jump layout in a ladies short program, watch Michelle Kwan's Dream of Desdemona SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEklWrSU8VQ

ETA: all statements in quotation marks from the ISU's own PCS Explanations page (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf)

Greatest short programs in ladies' figure skating

Olympia

OS

Sedated by Modonium

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

parma

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

parma

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

parma

OS

Sedated by Modonium

ImaginaryPogue

OS

Sedated by Modonium

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

OS

Sedated by Modonium

brightphoton

parma

evangeline

chloepoco

parma

bigsisjiejie

evangeline

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