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- Jan 23, 2009
Greatest short programs in ladies' figure skating
- Thread starter christinaskater
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Look, I suspected whether Blades of Passion was attention beggar based on what BoP did and not on what he/she said was right or wrong. Read my posts if you will. I am still waiting for BoP, the person of "good sensibility" and authority, to show how grand his taste is by showing what the golden standard quality Mexican food of short programs are.
What os168, Olympia and I said of kim's Giselle having a storyline and that being rare in today's short programs, we meant that the program doesn't stop at just simple caricaturing of a character but it seems to have an actual plot line with the four steps in composition like a mini theater play. So your example of Alena's portraying of "a sexy swashbuckling pirate" in her new program is completely off the topic. Go back and read our posts if you will.
Speaking of Alena's new SP, although her performance isn't that impressive, her character building in this program seem to be far better than her previous attempts in last two years' short programs. They are all front-loaded, and that carries on even when this performance is compared to her unfortunate 2009 Chicago long program in which jump layouts were dispersed and she had more time to play with her character. The difference in storytelling quality between her SP this year and these previous programs has nothing to do with the jump layouts. What matters is her confidence, refinement of the choreography and her presentation.
There are the concepts of "balanced program" and "storytelling" and the two are not the same. I don't disagree that a program with spread-out jumping passages seems to be more balanced. But jumps are jumps, and by themselves they do not "tell" any story, and no matter how spread out the jumps are in a program they will take up the same amount of time in terms of set up, exit, etc as in front-loaded programs. Front-loaded or not, choreography, music arrangement and skater's ability to convey it are mainly what determines the quality of character development and storytelling in a program.
The context of the discussion in the previous posts was the storytelling aspect of Kim's Giselle program and this was what you said.
I got the hunch that you would bring up one of Kwan's programs as your favorite.
I agree with what you said here, and I didn't say Kim's Giselle was one of the all-time greats either. After all, it is too early to judge the program in that light because it is half-baked in a sense that it was performed only once in a competitive setting. I and some others did agree however that if the program was performed more and the rough edges in the choreography were smoothed away then it could be potentially a great one.
One thing I want to point out is that one shouldn't take what the thread title says literally. There is no such thing as a program that everyone agrees as one of the best all time, because everyone has different taste and standards. What is going on here seems like person A says he/she likes apples and apple is one of the best fruits and then person B comes up and says liking apple or saying apple is one of the best fruits is wrong and liking berries or saying berry kinds are the best fruits is right. Watching one attempting to start an argument about someone else's subjective preference bothers me dearly because doing so is nonsensical and also the argument will go nowhere, as was seen here. I don't see that anyone here is expert enough to give others "lessons", whoever Blade of Passion thinks he/she is but actually got no clue. So why don't we move on and share with others what we think best programs are instead of starting stupid arguments that go nowhere.
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This is basically what my response was going to be.
Every movement a skater makes on the ice is part of the choreography/interpretation. Jumps are often supposed to be the exclamation point to great skating. Instead, these days, jumps are more of a "okay I have to get this out of the way" kind of thing...often preceded and/or followed by completely unnecessary movements that don't really do much for the choreography/interpretation, but give you CoP points because they are a Transition and judges don't understand that a program can have strong Transitions and still have crappy Choreography and Interpretation.
Look at how many skaters do all 3 jumping passes in the Short Program back-to-back-to-back these days. It's entirely ridiculous. I also can't recall hardly any Short Programs in recent years where the first 2 elements of the program weren't the 2 hardest jumping passes. The only variety we see is that a skater sometimes puts their easiest jump a little later in the program. Whoopee.
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- Oct 19, 2009
Um, except Tango de Roxanne, right? That is a YuNa SP, yes?
Say what you want about Giselle, which I personally don't care for, but you are so wrong about Homage and to compare the two programs whilst describing it as "bland and overly concentrated" makes me wonder if you even watched Homage. It is YuNa's second-best LP after Lark Ascending and had the potential to be her best had it been done clean on account of the passion I saw at Torino; what was unfortunate was it being half-baked. And still it was one of the better LPs done by a lady for the season.
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- Mar 23, 2010
You can design the most brilliant program in the world, but it is completely useless unless the skaters can complete everything perfectly in the limited time they have! I am not sure about muscle memory, but something has got to give, to maximize success rate to complete everything perfectly on BOTH programs. And with that, have artistry on top, if you still have got the energy and versatility to do it.
For choreographers, the best program they can do is likely from then till the the deadline, whether that is 2 days or 2 weeks for both programs. And within these limited time, it is very likely more energy and resources are going to be spent on the LP where, like you said - there will be more deliberate attempts for better and well thought choreography like program structure and placement of elements with the music. Unless the ISU can find ways to award better choreography, interpretation, creativity, transition, risk taking etc, this trend of SP structure are likely to stick around for a very long time. Or similarly, mark down programs for taking less risks etc..
Can things be better and improved? Sure! But those who have attempt to change things, or deviate from the norm have rarely been rewarded with what they deserve and have even been ridiculed at times, so that is hardly encouraging to other skaters to take on new risks either. This is incredibly frustrating for fans of sport, why should we be happy or care about mediocrity done safely/perfectly, when we should be wowed and be impressed by variation, risk taking, bravery, innovation and variety?
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- Nov 7, 2007
Well, I disagree. Alena's new SP does have a sort of actual plot line--one that is completely hobbled by her terrible Morozovian choreography--but it's there. Given the difference in the music and types of posing between the first and second halves of the program, I'd say that Morozov had some sort of pseudo-Elizabeth Swann sort of plotline for the SP. You know, good girl turns into sexy pirate after some extenuating circumstances as suggested by the increasingly tumultuous music. However, what I was trying to say was that this was absolutely obfuscated by the terrible choreography of this program, a fact that is accentuated by the terrible jump layout.
Look, I've been watching Alena for years and I disagree with your assertion that her character building in this program is "far better' than her previous attempts. OK, she shows some refinement, the program theme is not quite as tacky, and it's more clear what she's trying to portray, but that's mostly because of the familiar music makes it much more obvious what she's doing. I actually think that Alena's storytelling capabilities have actually stagnated or even worsened insofar as all her storytelling/character-building/whatever is now mostly consigned to a series of clichéd and superficial poses in between her elements and relying on the familiarity of her music to do most of the work. These attributes are arguably facilitated by her new Morozovian jump layout. Alena's previous programs were fairly front-loaded, but her new SP takes it to brand new lows. She used to open with her first 2 jumping passes, but now she opens with all three jumping passes in a row. Look at what she's doing--after the opening posing section, she skates to one end of the rink and lands her 3-3. Then she skates to the other end to do the 3Lz. Then immediately after she does the 2A, then the layback very close to where the 2A was. Minimal engagement with the music and any character-building that whole time. Then after some posing to establish her "sexy" character, she does a freaking one-minute long step sequence in a 2 minute and 40 second program, a step sequence which is fairly generic and doesn't establish much of a character at all except when she stops and poses midway through the step sequence. This excruciatingly long step sequence is made possible by the fact that all her jumping passes are clumped in the front. After this step sequence, she then does 2 spins in a row. Yes, there may be some character-building in this program, but it's done very badly, with mostly superficial engagement with the music. I really don't know how you can say her character-building is improved in this program--to me, it's BAD storytelling if a skater is only doing it in certain limited portions of the program, particularly when he/she's not doing anything else. At least in Alena's older programs (which really weren't masterpieces by an stretch of the imagination anyways) she was at least being somewhat unique and different from other skaters in terms of style.
The concept of a balanced program and storytelling are not the same. I agree. But what I've been trying to say all along is that a balanced program is NECESSARY but not SUFFICIENT for good storytelling and good choreography. Maybe it's a difference in what we value. I think a truly great program must take into account how and where the elements are placed throughout the program, how they are interconnected with each other and how they express the program's character.
The context of the discussion in the previous posts was the storytelling aspect of Kim's Giselle program and this was what you said.
Well, my response was directed towards a general statement you made which I disagreed with, not a specific comment about Yu-Na's Giselle. Look....as the original writer of that sentence, I solemnly declare that I had no intention whatsoever of directing that sentence at Yu-Na's Giselle or Yu-Na at all. It was meant as a general statement applying to ALL skaters. If I meant to comment on Giselle, I would have said so.
That's because Kwan's programs were very, very good. Great, even. Did you even watch DoD? See how all the jumps were spread throughout the program, and how they seemed like organic extensions of the music and thus helped Kwan build the character of Desdemona throughout the ENTIRE program, and not just the second half after all the jumps are done with? Now, THAT's good storytelling/character-building/whatever.
Also note that in my original post in this thread (post 15, written before this debate was ever a glint in anyone's eye), of all of my non-Kwan programs listed there (by Baiul, Rosenthal and Chen respectively), none of them front-loaded their jumps.
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I would like to add my vote for Yuna's Dance Macabre for being one of the best short programs ever. It might not be choreographically perfect but to me it doesn't matter. I am not an expert and from the point of view of a casual fan this program was magical from the first to the last second.
ita.
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