Was Mirai Nagasu underscored at the 2010 Olympics?

Olympia · Aug 27, 2011

fairly4 said:
personally, i think she was overscored. However i thought all skaters was overscored at the olympics. Mirai wasn't overscored since all was overscored.

she was scored correctly compared to all lady skaters. she wasn't overscored more than others . compared to the womens group she was scored correctly, but for me a tad high.

I think people were so jubilant that the final six skated so well and so cleanly that they probably handed out high scores like candy just in sheer celebration. It really was an Olympics for the ages, led by an extraordinary skater, YuNa, who completely lived up to her potential, and followed by a few skaters who toughed it out and kept up with her.

So often in an Olympics the heavy favorite has some difficulty, nerves or an injury, or just an off night, and other skaters also succumb to nerves. It's very rare that the best skaters have the skate of their lives at the Olympics--Boitano's long program in 1988 is one instance that comes to mind. On that night in Vancouver in 2010, pretty much everyone reached or exceeded her potential, Mirai included.

brightphoton · Aug 27, 2011

doug_log said:
Great thread. I always felt like she gave two medal worthy performances, but the other three girls were too good and there was no room on the podium. I feel the same way about Sasha Cohen at the 2002 Olympics. (Personally, I would have had Hughes, Cohen, Slutskaya, Kwan in that order.)

I think an equally interesting question is: Was Mirai underscored at 2010 worlds? I really really think she was. There is NO WAY that Lepisto was better than her in the LP. Absolutely no way. I really question the judging there. Anyone else agree?

Are you kidding me? Do you really think Mirai with a stepped out lutz, two footed flip, and fall on a double axel was better than a clean Lepisto? That's just silly. Mirai finished 11th in the free skate.

doug_log · Aug 27, 2011

brightphoton said:
Are you kidding me? Do you really think Mirai with a stepped out lutz, two footed flip, and fall on a double axel was better than a clean Lepisto? That's just silly. Mirai finished 11th in the free skate.

Lepisto: 3t-3t, 3L, 2R-2T, 2A, 2R, 2A, 2S-2T-2T
Nagasu: 3L (step out), 2A-3T, 3F, 3L<-2T (2ft), 3R+2A, 2A (fall), 3T

I dunno...Lepisto may have been clean, but she only had three triples. Mirai only had 4 clean ones and a fall, but she skated with more speed and spark. Her spins and spiral and step sequences were superior to Lepisto's in my opinion. Under 6.0 Lepisto clearly would have been better than Nagasu, but I think under IJS, she was better. I don't think she deserved 11th in that LP.

evangeline · Aug 27, 2011

doug_log said:
Lepisto: 3t-3t, 3L, 2R-2T, 2A, 2R, 2A, 2S-2T-2T
Nagasu: 3L (step out), 2A-3T, 3F, 3L<-2T (2ft), 3R+2A, 2A (fall), 3T

I dunno...Lepisto may have been clean, but she only had three triples. Mirai only had 4 clean ones and a fall, but she skated with more speed and spark. Her spins and spiral and step sequences were superior to Lepisto's in my opinion. Under 6.0 Lepisto clearly would have been better than Nagasu, but I think under IJS, she was better. I don't think she deserved 11th in that LP.

I am actually a pretty big fan of Mirai's skating but I really cannot see how anyone at all can argue that Mirai was better than Laura that night. Laura not only had superior choreography, interpretation, transitions and ice coverage, but her program was also ingeniously constructed to wring out every last point out of all the triples she did. After all, this is IJS, not 6.0--you can't just stick your finger at the amount of triples landed without looking at them in the context of how all the jumps were fitted into the program. For instance, Laura did two very good 2As in the second half of her program, which netted her not only positive GOE but also gave her a 10% bonus, which made her 2As worth virtually the same amount as 2 3Ts. The fact that Laura also doubled her jumps and yet managed to complete her combos instead of making major errors like Mirai allowed Laura to completely avoid negative GOEs while Mirai was hit pretty hard in terms of negative GOE.

So, if anything, it was through working the IJS that allowed Laura to minimize her losses on the jumping front to win the bronze with three triples.

brightphoton · Aug 27, 2011

doug_log said:
Lepisto: 3t-3t, 3L, 2R-2T, 2A, 2R, 2A, 2S-2T-2T
Nagasu: 3L (step out), 2A-3T, 3F, 3L<-2T (2ft), 3R+2A, 2A (fall), 3T

I dunno...Lepisto may have been clean, but she only had three triples. Mirai only had 4 clean ones and a fall, but she skated with more speed and spark. Her spins and spiral and step sequences were superior to Lepisto's in my opinion. Under 6.0 Lepisto clearly would have been better than Nagasu, but I think under IJS, she was better. I don't think she deserved 11th in that LP.

Mirai skated tentatively and cautiously at 2010 World's LP, failed to perform her choreography, and her triples were not of their usual high quality.

Laura is no slacker either. She's moderately fast on the ice, very fluid and graceful, and interprets her music well. Even her doubled jumps were well executed and probably were given positive grade of execution points. Laura Lepisto also had a triple triple combination, which Mirai did not have.

Poodlepal · Aug 27, 2011

It sounds like, what with all this "fairness" of assigning values to jumps and "fairly" adding up the points, what the judges really want is someone to skate fast. Carolina can fall several times, but will win because she skates fast, as can Patrick Chan. Laura skated faster than Mirai, did less triples (albeit cleanly) and wound up how many spots ahead of Mirai?

Poor Caroline Zhang. She should start sending out college applications asap, if that's the way it is.

Blades of Passion · Aug 27, 2011

Mirai was underscored in the LP but Joannie deserved her Bronze medal overall with that SP performance. /thread

christinaskater · Aug 28, 2011

There is no doubt that the top 3 ladies deserved their spots in my opinion- I just think that Mirai could have scored up to 197 for her performance for both the short and the long.

If you combine her SP for the 2010 Worlds and her LP for the 2010 Olympics-then she would have gotten 200 points plus which is amazing!

Had she really been 2nd or 3rd in the SP then she would have had less pressure and would have skated a lights out performance like Kimmie back in 2006.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I love LAURA, but she was way too over scored during the 2010 Worlds- Miki Ando deserved that bronze medal or even Cynthia and Mirai.

bekalc · Aug 28, 2011

evangeline said:
I am actually a pretty big fan of Mirai's skating but I really cannot see how anyone at all can argue that Mirai was better than Laura that night. Laura not only had superior choreography, interpretation, transitions and ice coverage, but her program was also ingeniously constructed to wring out every last point out of all the triples she did. After all, this is IJS, not 6.0--you can't just stick your finger at the amount of triples landed without looking at them in the context of how all the jumps were fitted into the program. For instance, Laura did two very good 2As in the second half of her program, which netted her not only positive GOE but also gave her a 10% bonus, which made her 2As worth virtually the same amount as 2 3Ts. The fact that Laura also doubled her jumps and yet managed to complete her combos instead of making major errors like Mirai allowed Laura to completely avoid negative GOEs while Mirai was hit pretty hard in terms of negative GOE.

So, if anything, it was through working the IJS that allowed Laura to minimize her losses on the jumping front to win the bronze with three triples.

I thought Laura's bronze medal was ridiculous but I don't think its right to say Mirai was robbed in the free. There are other skaters I think who deserved that bronze medal more than Mirai. Miki, Phaneuf, and Kostner come to mind.

R.D. · Aug 28, 2011

Well, fortunately or unfortunately (however you see it), we cannot go back in time and change the results. So...well, it is what it is.

ILoveFigures · Aug 28, 2011

Have some of you completely forgotten that Mirai was not even 4th in the long at the Olympics? She was 5th(!) behind four much more mature women. Yes, she did very well, but saying she was robbed is completely false. End of discussion.

When it comes to who should have won bronze in Turin. Well, that was a close call and could have gone either way. Lepistö, Ando, Phaneuf and Kostner all scored 178-177. That basically means that the judges had no knowledge of the outcome when they judged, because it's just too close to know beforehand.

b-man · Aug 29, 2011

ILoveFigures said:
Have some of you completely forgotten that Mirai was not even 4th in the long at the Olympics? She was 5th(!) behind four much more mature women. Yes, she did very well, but saying she was robbed is completely false. End of discussion.

When it comes to who should have won bronze in Turin. Well, that was a close call and could have gone either way. Lepistö, Ando, Phaneuf and Kostner all scored 178-177. That basically means that the judges had no knowledge of the outcome when they judged, because it's just too close to know beforehand.

Not the end of the discussion. In the Vancouver LP, Nagasu's TES, which is an objective measurement, was 2nd, ahead of Asada, ahead of Rochette, ahead of Lepisto, and ahead of Ando. She was way behind in both the SP and LP in PCS scores, where preconceived bias comes into play.

R.D. · Aug 29, 2011

^ there you go. The dreaded program components...

kwanatic · Aug 29, 2011

^^ or as someone dubbed it, PCS: the Please Cheat Secretly score...it fits, especially since the scores are anonymous. :laugh:

To me, PCS and GOE are still far too subjective, thus they will never be fair.

R.D. · Aug 29, 2011

haha good one.

pangtongfan · Aug 29, 2011

b-man said:
Not the end of the discussion. In the Vancouver LP, Nagasu's TES, which is an objective measurement, was 2nd, ahead of Asada, ahead of Rochette, ahead of Lepisto, and ahead of Ando. She was way behind in both the SP and LP in PCS scores, where preconceived bias comes into play.

The LP is not the sole determining factor of the result. Even if Nagasu were 2nd in the LP (which I dont think she deserved but anyway) she still would have been 4th overall since Asada and Rochette were too strong in the short program. Nagasu would have needed roughly a 140 LP to overtake Rochette for the bronze, something she wouldnt have been close to even with the same PCS and Rochette and Asada. Also Asada and Rochette are more mature and polished skaters and deserve higher PCS than Nagasu at that point. Nagasu deserves higher PCS than Flatt for instance.

This is a silly and pointless discussion really.

b-man · Aug 29, 2011

^ Nagasu was 5th in the long, despite 2nd in TES scores.

Indulge me in being silly and pointless a little longer. Nagasu would have needed a higher LP, as you stated, to overtake Rochette. But that assumes the SP was scored corrctly. Nagasu lost a huge amount of Points, again in PCS scores in the short. She was scored not only behind Kim, Asada, Rouchette, Ando, Kostner, but also behind Flatt, Leonova, Lepisto, Suzuki, and in a tie for 10th with Sebestien in PCS in the short. As others have commented, Nagasu was really low-balled in the short. It is also noted that Nagasu had the third highest combined TES score (SP + LP) in the competition. I know the majority think Rochette was a clear winner, but many also do not believe Nagasu lost the bronze by 12-13 points

ImaginaryPogue · Aug 29, 2011

b-man said:
Not the end of the discussion. In the Vancouver LP, Nagasu's TES, which is an objective measurement, was 2nd, ahead of Asada, ahead of Rochette, ahead of Lepisto, and ahead of Ando. She was way behind in both the SP and LP in PCS scores, where preconceived bias comes into play.

You think so? How often has Blades come in criticizing the GOEs in general? Or criticized a certain UR call (get him started on Takahashi's Olympic LP. I dare you

)

I do love that she tied Sebestyn for PCS in the SP, though. What a bizarre duo.

pangtongfan · Aug 29, 2011

b-man said:
^ Nagasu was 5th in the long, despite 2nd in TES scores.

Indulge me in being silly and pointless a little longer. Nagasu would have needed a higher LP, as you stated, to overtake Rochette. But that assumes the SP was scored corrctly. Nagasu lost a huge amount of Points, again in PCS scores in the short. She was scored not only behind Kim, Asada, Rouchette, Ando, Kostner, but also behind Flatt, Leonova, Lepisto, Suzuki, and in a tie for 10th with Sebestien in PCS in the short. As others have commented, Nagasu was really low-balled in the short. It is also noted that Nagasu had the third highest combined TES score (SP + LP) in the competition. I know the majority think Rochette was a clear winner, but many also do not believe Nagasu lost the bronze by 12-13 points

Nagasu's SP was just good. It was nothing standout. Thinking in realistic terms she was also skating early and not considered a medal threat, for she had to really do something to catch the judges attention. She did that in the long, but not in the short, the short she just did a respectable job and predictably in a night of outstanding skating and not as a real contender coming in got lost in the shuffle a bit, but still made the final flight. The only people you listed I would have given her higher PCS than in the short would be Flatt, probably Leonova (and maybe a lackluster Ando). I definitely agreed with Suzuki and Lepisto getting higher PCS in the short. They had better choreographed and more polished programs IMO.

For the sake of argument though raise her PCS 3 points in the SP to put her about level with an overmarked Ando for the 4th highest PCS (I dont think either she or Ando deserved PCS that high in the short, of course former World Champ Ando predictably got the inflated PCS) and raise her PCS a whopping 8 points to put them equal to Rochette's 2nd highest PCS in the long (in no way do I think she deserved PCS in the long that high btw). She still wouldnt have won a medal, and still would have finished 4th.

Even with much more generous PC scoring Nagasu would have had to elevate her TES higher than she did to deserve a medal. Arguing she deserves PCS as high or higher as skaters like Asada and Rochette, especialy in programs like the short program where Asada and Rochette skate their very best, isnt really merited.

b-man · Aug 29, 2011

^^ I-pogue, I should have said TES is relatively objective, when compared to the program components, which are more subjective.

Was Mirai Nagasu underscored at the 2010 Olympics?

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