JGP Tallinn Entries

[Mirunna]

Not to take anything from Gracie,who was quite brilliant tonight, but I am tired to see Risa underscored in PCS. Out of all the juniors I've seen this season she is by far the most overall developed skater and this should be reflected in her PCS. Gravie Gold, as brilliant as she was and even though deserved to win the SP, did not deserve bigger PCS than Risa(the same goes for Courtney Hicks who also beat Risa on PCS this season).
I felt the judges were a bit harsh with Nishino this evening. I love her skating and her program and felt the << on her second 3T was unfair.
My heart goes to Samantha who skated again very well but might end up with 2 bronzes and out of the final because of her incredible hard assignments.

[silverlake22]

Not to take anything from Gracie,who was quite brilliant tonight, but I am tired to see Risa underscored in PCS. Out of all the juniors I've seen this season she is by far the most overall developed skater and this should be reflected in her PCS. Gravie Gold, as brilliant as she was and even though deserved to win the SP, did not deserve bigger PCS than Risa(the same goes for Courtney Hicks who also beat Risa on PCS this season).
I felt the judges were a bit harsh with Nishino this evening. I love her skating and her program and felt the << on her second 3T was unfair.
My heart goes to Samantha who skated again very well but might end up with 2 bronzes and out of the final because of her incredible hard assignments.

I agree about Risa, she really is one of the best if not the best junior currently skating on the PCS side of things. She has great SS and basics, speed, maturity, transitions, everything. One thing I will say though is that her SP this season doesn't really play to her strengths, though she pulls it off quite well anyways. I hope if she skates well in the free her PCS will go up, because I absolutely love her FS this season and this it accentuates everything she does well in terms of skating. Her PCS increased a couple points between SP and FS in Australia, so hopefully the same will happen here if she skates well in the free.

I also agree about Nishino and think her PCS deserve to be higher as well, and that her reputation as a chronic under-rotator has led to the judges being EXTREMELY strict about her jumps.

Gracie was brilliant and I am very happy for her, but even though she has speed and power in excess, I agree that her PCS should not be higher than Risa's. But their PCS are pretty much equal anyways, so I'm not too upset given how great Gracie skated.

[mskater93]

As I told Silverlake in another thread, there's a hard 3+3 bonus that seems to get applied to PCS marks (3F+3T will trump a 3S+3T) AND Gold is VERY fast. Faster in person than she looks even on video - if the judges started with SS marks as the first one marked on her card, Gold will beat most skaters with "corridor" scoring based on her speed and bi-directional skating.

[FlattFan]

Not to take anything from Gracie,who was quite brilliant tonight, but I am tired to see Risa underscored in PCS. Out of all the juniors I've seen this season she is by far the most overall developed skater and this should be reflected in her PCS. Gravie Gold, as brilliant as she was and even though deserved to win the SP, did not deserve bigger PCS than Risa(the same goes for Courtney Hicks who also beat Risa on PCS this season).
I felt the judges were a bit harsh with Nishino this evening. I love her skating and her program and felt the << on her second 3T was unfair.
My heart goes to Samantha who skated again very well but might end up with 2 bronzes and out of the final because of her incredible hard assignments.

Gracie is much faster, has more transitions. How is she overscored compare to Risa?
PCS breakdown
SS
TR
PE
IN
CH

Which component(s) should Risa score higher than Gracie? I like Risa's style and her SS might be slightly better, but for the other 4, I don't think she should come close.

[Mirunna]

Well I believe Risa should score better on SS(by some margin; speed isn't everything and Risa is not a slow skater by any means), on IN and CH. Gracie had that wow factor tonight and her PE score should be higher. Plus she had more transitions compared to Risa, this I agree. As a curiosity, Judge nr 7 gave Gracie 5 and 5.25 on her PCS while another 7 and 7.25(which proves that some judges have no idea what to do with a skater they have never seen before and who lands big jumps).Anyway, I never said Gracie was overscored compared to Risa, I said Risa is underscored compared with the rest on the field(not only on this JGP). She feels the music and expresses it very nicely, her arms are wonderful and she simply has a more mature way of skating. I like her better than Kanako Murakami for this matter. Still, like I've said, the placements were correct and it is nice to see the top 3 ladies with a true 3Lz. It's so bad Gracie does not have a second assignment, it would have been exciting to see her and Julia competing against each other at the JGPF. But maybe we'll see them at Junior Worlds(and Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva ....who needs Senior ladies this season?)

[Spun Silver]

I don't agree that Gracie Gold skates more maturely than Julia L. She looks more mature because she's two or three years older but that's not the same as having better presentation. Gracie's jumps are definitely bigger and that gives her a terrific advantage. Julia is a baby ballerina with stunning line and flexibility. Gracie has little flexibility - her Russian split is unimpressive and unlike Flattfan I wasn't wowed by her Ina Bauer into lutz because she has no backbend whatsoever. They're both fast. Julia's spins have much more wow factor. They'll be good competition for each other but I predict that Julia will outlast Gracie. Of course I'm prejudiced as I'm in Julia's corner bigtime.

On a minor note, I hope Gracie changes her costume as this one makes her look wide around the waist (the dress has no waist and is lighter in the middle).

[ntl]

I agree that Gracie still has a way to go in term of presentation, but so does Julia. Granted, Gracie isn't a gumbie, but her stretch is definitely decent from what I've seen. And no, an Ina Bauer doesn't have to have a back bend; we are just too accustomed to seeing layback Inas these days. To be frank, I'm not a fan of the flexibility moves in Julia's programs that are put there simply to show off her flexibility without any relation to choreography. Her leg-over-head Biellmann and spiral in particular are flexible but really unattractive in my opinion.

[FlattFan]

Well I believe Risa should score better on SS(by some margin; speed isn't everything and Risa is not a slow skater by any means), on IN and CH. Gracie had that wow factor tonight and her PE score should be higher. Plus she had more transitions compared to Risa, this I agree. As a curiosity, Judge nr 7 gave Gracie 5 and 5.25 on her PCS while another 7 and 7.25(which proves that some judges have no idea what to do with a skater they have never seen before and who lands big jumps).Anyway, I never said Gracie was overscored compared to Risa, I said Risa is underscored compared with the rest on the field(not only on this JGP). She feels the music and expresses it very nicely, her arms are wonderful and she simply has a more mature way of skating. I like her better than Kanako Murakami for this matter. Still, like I've said, the placements were correct and it is nice to see the top 3 ladies with a true 3Lz. It's so bad Gracie does not have a second assignment, it would have been exciting to see her and Julia competing against each other at the JGPF. But maybe we'll see them at Junior Worlds(and Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva ....who needs Senior ladies this season?)

Risa's SS is unmatched, I agree.
As for IN and CH, they are so subjective. They tend to be higher for anyone who has the wow factor. Kavaguti/Smirnov clearly had the best IN and CH, and yet, theirs were so much lower than S/S, P/T, and even V/T.
The other two components, TR and PE, you agreed Gracie should score well.
Anyway, their PCS should approach Julia's PCS. Unfortunately, they get the same PCS as so many other girls.

The judging is hopeless. Last week, Sakoto had more TR than Patrick Chan, and she got 5+ average. And Julia got 7+ average. Ridiculous!

[FlattFan]

I don't agree that Gracie Gold skates more maturely than Julia L. She looks more mature because she's two or three years older but that's not the same as having better presentation. Gracie's jumps are definitely bigger and that gives her a terrific advantage. Julia is a baby ballerina with stunning line and flexibility. Gracie has little flexibility - her Russian split is unimpressive and unlike Flattfan I wasn't wowed by her Ina Bauer into lutz because she has no backbend whatsoever. They're both fast. Julia's spins have much more wow factor. They'll be good competition for each other but I predict that Julia will outlast Gracie. Of course I'm prejudiced as I'm in Julia's corner bigtime.

On a minor note, I hope Gracie changes her costume as this one makes her look wide around the waist (the dress has no waist and is lighter in the middle).

It's a judged sport. What you present on the ice is what you get. You're telling people that judging should be on a curve? The 13yo get judged in the 13yo-group. The 16yo get judged in the 16yo-group? Urgh, no.

Julia is impressive, but I don't like her programs. I feel like watching gymnastics at time in her routine, I mean SP. Her Biellman is unsightly. Sorry.

[LeCygne]

I agree that Gracie still has a way to go in term of presentation, but so does Julia. Granted, Gracie isn't a gumbie, but her stretch is definitely decent from what I've seen. And no, an Ina Bauer doesn't have to have a back bend; we are just too accustomed to seeing layback Inas these days. To be frank, I'm not a fan of the flexibility moves in Julia's programs that are put there simply to show off her flexibility without any relation to choreography. Her leg-over-head Biellmann and spiral in particular are flexible but really unattractive in my opinion.

Good post. Gracie isn't any less flexible than your average ladies skaters. We can't all have Russian splits like Sasha Cohen's or Ina Bauers like Shizuka Arakawa's. I don't believe Gracie was going for a layback Ina Bauer into the triple lutz anyway, and she does have a very nice Biellmann. I'm also not a big fan of Julia's catchfoot spirals throughout the program - that's not choreography. We know she's flexible from her spin positions and spiral sequence. She doesn't need to stick her leg in the air every couple of strokes (to be blunt - of course I'm exaggerating). I am, however, impressed that Julia seems to have the best of both worlds: crazy flexibility and excellent jumps. We've seen so many skaters gifted with one of the two but struggling to develop or maintain the other (Sasha, Mao, Yu-Na, Mirai, Caroline). Let's see if Julia can keep both as she gets older.

[Spun Silver]

Flattfan, that's not what I said or meant. My point was that what someone referred to as Gracie's more mature skating is really nothing more (IMO) than a more mature physical appearance, which is only to be expected since she is significantly older and further along in the puberty process.

No skin off my back if you don't like Julia. Just wait.

I'm not arguing that Julia is fully developed artistically or that she has fabulous programs. I just think that Gracie's jumps are the best part of her skating and that Julia has all the talent, and apparently discipline, she needs to be blowing everybody's socks off in a couple of years... at least if she has good material to work with. JMO.

Thanks to the posters who enlightened me re: different types of IBs.

[ImaginaryPogue]

I enjoyed Gold's skating more than Julia's, if only because uber-flexibility really doesn't impress me, whereas power and chutzpah certainly does.

[silverlake22]

Risa's SS is unmatched, I agree.
As for IN and CH, they are so subjective. They tend to be higher for anyone who has the wow factor. Kavaguti/Smirnov clearly had the best IN and CH, and yet, theirs were so much lower than S/S, P/T, and even V/T.
The other two components, TR and PE, you agreed Gracie should score well.
Anyway, their PCS should approach Julia's PCS. Unfortunately, they get the same PCS as so many other girls.

The judging is hopeless. Last week, Sakoto had more TR than Patrick Chan, and she got 5+ average. And Julia got 7+ average. Ridiculous!

I think this is a big factor. I love Risa's skating, but her style is a bit more introverted than someone like Julia or even Gracie who just go out there and throw everything they've got down. Julia is quite the prodigy, so I'll leave her out of this, but comparing Risa and Gracie is like comparing Abbott and Joubert. If they both skate well, they will get similar big PCS because they are both great skaters. Joubert's big jumps and flashy style have gotten him far even though I find his skating nowhere near as elegant or sophisticated as someone like Abbott, who has a lyrical and somewhat introverted style. It's hard to say who's better, I mean Joubert has the track record on his side, but if they went head to head and both skated cleanly it would probably be very close. I guess what I'm trying to say is it comes down to preferences, different strokes for different folks. In skating, powerful and flashy seems to do just as well as elegant and sophisticated so long as you have the jumps to back it up. I prefer Risa to Gracie, but recognize Gracie's talent and understand why she is in 1st, her skating leaves a big, bold impression while Risa is impressive in a more subdued, understated (though beautiful) way. I would have had Risa ahead in PCS but I agree with the standings as Gracie deserves her huge GOE.

[samba]

What was the reason that USFS did not send Gold to JGP earlier? I did not see jammed pack talents in JGP ladies this year. US might end up with only one ladies in JPF since this is the last event .

[Mrs. P]

What was the reason that USFS did not send Gold to JGP earlier? I did not see jammed pack talents in JGP ladies this year. US might end up with only one ladies in JPF since this is the last event .

Basically, Gracie had a disastrous performance at sectionals and did not make Nationals and they use the results from Nationals to determine who gets spots. They take summer competitions into account too, that's how Gracie got a spot, but her nationals results were not good enough to get too. In reality the only people who got two spots were Courtney Hicks (1st place, Junior) , Vanessa Lam (7th pace, Senior) and Samantha Cesario (Qualified for nationals with a first place at sectionals and regionals but WD). Yasmin Siraj (8th place, senior) also had two spots, but gave one up so she could prepare for Regionals. Ashley Cain (6th junior) ended up getting that second spot

The ones who got one spot were: Lauren Dinh (2nd, junior); Katarina Kulgeykom (3rd, junior); McKinzie Daniels (4th junior); Hannah Miller (1st, novice) and Gracie Gold came to the top for that last spot, beating out Leah Keiser and Angela Wang (who both did not qualify for Nationals).

Obviously, this should spur on the whole "how much should nationals determine world spots" debate we saw at the senior level last year.