All Things Canadian Ice Dance

Here we are waiting to see Virtue and Moir's programs , Weaver and Poje's programs, Paul and Islam's programs , what will come of the new Gilles/Poirier pairing , whether Vanessa Crone really is on the verge of forming a new partnership ,and how our crop of juniors ( many new ) will fare on the JGP.. Lots to talk about then.

But to start this off, I want to dip my toe into relatively uncharted waters.

In my agony over waiting to see P/I (whose SD music I've fallen in love with ) ,I was noticing ,on FSU ,that NorthernDancers went to the Isabelle Henderson competition in hopes of seeing them. (They withdrew... :disapp..Instead 'Dancers , you said you saw Lioudvinevitch / Mulder and that they were quite lovely . I googled , and found this , which was how I remembered them , and it didn't seem that long ago ...

http://tracings.net/liou-muld.html ... surely this wasn't only year or two ago ? because..

This is what NorthernDancers saw at the Isabelle Henderson competition...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeff_mulder/5064131996/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeff_mulder/5064131496/in/photostream ...(Dad shoots a lovely photo)

I gather they were together, split , ( she was paired with Thomas Williams at some point.. ) and now they're back together.

12th at Jrs. last year , now Sr's ....How old are they , and is Paul McIntosh building another secret weapon ?...

GREAT costumes !

A clear evidence of the subjectivity of costume opinions: I actively dislike both his and her costumes! His is way too fussy and over done to me, and looks quite dated; hers - the cabbage rose thing doesn't work for me. Yet, there were criticisms of Bent/McKeen's costumes elsewhere - and I like his, hers is not wonderful, but, I would take them over this style.

I didn't get the chance to see them skate ... hopefully, will be able to at some point.

1. I like the costumes. The dated aspect is actually what I respond to - very elegant

2. The real thing to note, imo, is that Orford/Williams score at Brisbane was six points lower than Ralph/Hill's at Nebelhorn. Now, remembering that seniors do one more lift (level 4 = four points + GOE) you've gotta wonder if O/W can rope in R/H by Nationals. If they do, I wonder if L/R will rethink her coaching strategy (especially depending on how Gilles/Poirier do). That stated, flaws aside, I actually think R/H are on the right track. I kinda like the SD and they do look quite sharp. Part of me is not as convinced

re: Harvey/Gagnon

NorthernDancers said:

Now about Harvey/Gagnon, oof.... They are both lovely people who have been skating together for a long time. But I thought this already last year: they are no longer physically suited to each other. It's not that she is big. She's a beautiful, mature young woman and with lots of talent. She needs someone taller and bigger to skate with. He is very talented with a ton of personality, but needs someone the size of Marie-France Dubreil. It can't be that they weren't prepared. They have already competed in Lake Placid and Ottawa and BC. Except for BC, where I still think the marks were a little boosted across the board, their marks have been underwhelming. And perhaps the halo effect over BC right now is causing Skate Canada to ignore some of the downside of the skating while they are mesmerized by bright shiny things. Programs from BC generally are bright, modern, fast and with some cool moves. Music is usually Broadway, from movies, or something you would find in a show program. At first it was very refreshing after all the angst and melodrama of the past. And the teams skate very fast. But is it now simply a way to hide issues in basic technique? Does the skating style translate well internationally where judges might be looking for a more traditional skating style and don't care about the flash? It reminds me a little of an old ad campaign from Wendy's that was very popular. In examining a competitor's burgers, 2 old ladies agree, "yup, mighty nice bun, but where's the beef?!"

Click to expand...

colleen o'neill said:

Tarrah and Keith have been skating together since '98. They're aged 22 and 24. They are a bit mismatched, IMO ( only a 2 inch height difference). They've been with Wing and Lowe since spring( I think ) of 2007 ( post-nationals ?). At '06 and '07 Nationals they were 13th. So ,in the time they've been with W&L , they've moved up 7 or 8 placements nationally (figuring around V/M's absence last year )..pretty good, considering the top 3 spots were virtually a lock for the last few yrs., and considering the sudden emergence of P/I.

Considering the time they've been together, the scarcity of readily available partners , and the fact that they have improved , I can understand their reluctance to look for a better size match. Now..having said all that...I realize their height situation maybe doesn't encourage a softer style ( romantic) program , since they can't easily achieve a classic look, but I think they should move a bit in that direction , on occasion. I think they may strive too much to be different.

I've had a real problem with their costumes, the last two years.. which I couldn't understand, since there wasn't a problem with W&L's younger teams, and W/L themselves , were always pretty nicely turned out during their career. It can't be a good thing when a couple takes the ice and the first thought that comes into your head is "What has she got on ?" This situation was a mystery to me until I saw the ads for Tarrah's Mum's costume business at BCSS. Great for all the skating mum's who can't sew, or don't have time..but not at the senior level. It's time to stop keeping it in the family, Tarrah. I might be wrong , but when the coaches' Jr. couples all look better packaged , what other conclusion can you draw ?

I don't think the speed is a negative , since ,looking at W&L's Jr. couples, they seem to generally be getting good technical scores. And it does make me smile , because W/L were often accused of being slow in their own competitive years..That's not going to happen to their teams.

I don't like the SD music choices for many of their teams this year , but so far, that may not be a drawback with the judges..too soon to say. I do have to wonder if H/G's off beat programs hurt them last yr. and now this yr.again. They were marked pretty close to R/H last yr. at Canadians..which is the one place their programs were most sure to be seen with friendly eyes .Technically they were pretty close, I think. I haven't seen a huge improvement in R/H ( but of course , I haven't seen this competition ), and H/G don't have the same particular problems , though as noted , they have some of their own.

H/G do seem to garner better marks as the season goes on... so could they do something to be more ready sooner ? I did notice some rough bits at BCSS.. but was that really early to expect a lot ?

Click to expand...

I don't know. I have to admit that I'm a bit puzzled. The closest recent antecedent I can think of is the Hubbells. They had a five inch height difference, but because she wasn't the tiniest thing (and please don't take this to mean I'm calling her fat) they had to come up with some really creative stuff (and did - their Sognami FD was terrific). Of course, we all know what happened there in the end. I do think H/G are slower than a top team should be. It's hard to fault them for being "too" different. That certainly doesn't hurt Zhiganshina/Gazsi. But if you notice, H/G are losing across the board. They get low base values on the biggest elements (step sequence). They do seem to have a slower learning curve, which means they aren't as ready at the early events as others are. Skate Canada doesn't use the Senior Bs effectively, so they don't get the chance to improve in front of international judges. And finally, they skate for Canada, which has a fairly broad/deep field that at the same time, isn't all that fluid. That said, FOUR of Canada's junior teams have just outscored them.

Please do tell, someone, what is happening with Vanessa... Any news? I REALLY hope she finds someone soon. Did I see something about her having try-outs in Detroit? Did Skate Canada and USFS maybe make a deal? Canada gets Piper, and US gets Vanessa?

Canadian Juniors are off to a great start. I don't generally get too excited about Junior. For some reason, Junior doesn't always translate into fast success at Senior. Sometimes yes: Weaver/Poje, Virtue/Moir, Islam/Paul. But sometimes not: Ralph/Hill, Routhier/Sauke-Lacelle, etc. There are way more teams that ended up either forming at Senior, or just developing at Senior, into fantastic skaters with international success. It's not normal for kids to see instant success. Dance is the discipline that gets better with time, maturity, and years of development. Dubreil/Lauzon were not that great when they were newly Senior. Wing/Lowe spent many years at Senior before getting their chance to the Olympics. Weaver/Poje saw instant success, and then spent a few years in the wilderness before finding their groove again. And how many years were Delobel/Schoenfelder at Senior before winning worlds? That being said, there is definitely promise in some of those Juniors. Bent/McKeen will have a few years to really grow and develop internationally as Juniors. They have something special about them. The jury is out yet on the little folks from BC. I worry that they are so young, they will outgrow each other. I also worry they will be pushed along too fast, and end up out of the sport. Khongs come to mind. If Bruser/Lum or even Bent/McKeen win Junior, they will have to be Senior domestically, which makes no sense at all. And then what happens to them if they suddenly find themselves in partnerships that no longer make sense, but have challenges making the transition to a new team? There are a couple of interesting Junior teams from Quebec, but it's too early to tell who will develop. I'm a little hot and cold on Orford/Williams. She is simply amazing, but he doesn't have me convinced quite yet. I don't want to rush to judgement based on one shaky video, so we'll see how this looks again this week.

Interesting background on Harvey/Gagnon. Didn't realize they are already 22/24. I remember when they were Juniors, and that seems like yesterday. I'm not too sure what to think about the Senior rankings this year. There are a lot of unknowns and possibilities. Top 2 are locked. Assuming Paul/Islam are healthy, they will be 3rd. Based on a positive, although not stellar, start to the season, they will likely be 4th. Beyond that, there are a bunch of teams that are not that far apart from each other and we'll have to see who steps up over the season: Arnold/Trojek, Harvey/Gagnon, Arotta/Nickel, Dupont/Connolly, Lioudvinevitch/Mulder, and Van As/Shindle. And we can't forget that Orford/Williams and Gilles/Poirier will factor in there somewhere too. For me, I love this time of year because it allows us to see who has been working hard in the off season. Who understands what needs to be fixed, and is working on making the fixes? It's when growth is most noticable. It hasn't been a great start for Arnold/Trojek either, but Arotta/Nickel have stepped things up. Dupont/Connolly look like a new team. I haven't seen Van As/Shindle, but they seem to have had some reasonable scores so far. Lioudvinevitch/Mulder are a whole new team as well, based on what I've seen.

And about Lioudvinevitch/Mulder: based on the link to tracings, they are 19/18 years old. So really young yet. She aged out of Juniors. Wow, he sure did change a lot in a couple of years. So did she. She's now a red-head, and he's looking even older this year. Couple of words describe this team: he's TALL, but doesn't seem to get in the way of him moving well, and they are a very elegant team. Very classic skating style, which goes with the classic costumes. No surprise to many I'm sure, I'm a fan of classical dance. To me, the tricks should underscore the dance. There are 3 big things that stopped this team at Junior last year, and kept them out of top 10: speed, confidence/power, presentation/interpretation. They have made significant progress on all these areas, and we'll see how they develop over the season.

My understanding re: the Khongs is that school was suffering due to their committment and their parents (understandably) chose school. I have to admit your reticence about the BC teams is rather confusing, though.

Not to be pessimistic, but I don't think that we'll see Crone competing in dance any more.

ImaginaryPogue said:

My understanding re: the Khongs is that school was suffering due to their committment and their parents (understandably) chose school. I have to admit your reticence about the BC teams is rather confusing, though.

Not to be pessimistic, but I don't think that we'll see Crone competing in dance any more.

Click to expand...

I sincerely hope you are wrong about Vanessa.

ImaginaryPogue said:

Not to be pessimistic, but I don't think that we'll see Crone competing in dance any more.

Click to expand...

I sure hope that is not so, and that she finds a partner. Why do you think she won't be back?

My favorite ice dance couple right now are Weaver and Poje. Their performances blow me away. They look so romantic and are such a good looking pair.

stevlin
Weaver and Poje's programs are a source of great curiosity for me this year. I'm particularly eager to see their SD. With the FD, as long as they have a good, well cut music arrangement , I'm sure they can do something really effective.I don't think this music has been used as often as last yr's FD. I'm hoping their SD can be as great as last year's ( and may Kaitlin's dress be just as iconic.. )

Pogue and 'Dancers and Olympia... OK, I recant ( sort of ) ..... I shouldn't have used " romantic " in my H/G rant. I meant it in the general sense , not necessarily lovey-dovey. And I'm glad Olympia mentioned the Kerrs, because I actually had something like the Kerr's FD from last yr. in mind , which managed to be athletic and floaty at the same time. But after a good rethink , I don't even think that would be absolutely necessary ... though I'd enjoy it.

doris had mentioned that they don't seem to be ready at the start of the season..and I sort of agree ,but then I don't know how they have to pace themselves in the business of peaking.

I'll have to do this in 2 posts.

Now , where was I ?

Pogue , I don't recall having thought they were very slow , do you think it's enough to be a detriment ?

What I keep coming back to is The Package..maybe I'm obsessed , but I think it might make a very big difference. I don't think you can really use Z/G as a comparison..I think they go too far ,too theatrical, with their costumes, they're over thought , if anything..But I think the trouble with H/G's is that they're sometimes not thought out enough, or researched, or something. His and hers are sometimes not harmonious with each other so it looks like they're costumed for two separate dances, or if they do kind of go together, then they may not seem to have anything to do with the music. So 2 yrs in a row, I've found the overall effect incoherent and a bit puzzling, which distracts me somewhat from their skating. It makes me think of someone just doodling costume ideas on paper, thinking, oh, this one's cool, and sewing it up...without much thought of whether it suits the music ,or if it will flatter the skater.

They both have a nice on-ice presence ,and Tarrah could look really striking.It seems a shame to be wondering why she's dressed that way ,instead of being able to think how fabulous she looks.

I assume they will work on bringing their levels up. They've a bit of time before SC and quite a bit of time before nationals..But will they even see that they could improve their costumes ?I'm not sure..

I do know that all W&L 's Jr. couples look better packaged, so it's not a school shortcoming.

Young Madeline Edwards coming up at this week's JGP has one of my favourite SD dresses of the season, so far.

ImaginaryPogue said:

My understanding re: the Khongs is that school was suffering due to their committment and their parents (understandably) chose school. I have to admit your reticence about the BC teams is rather confusing, though.

Not to be pessimistic, but I don't think that we'll see Crone competing in dance any more.

Click to expand...

Or was this just an excuse for the Khongs? Many skaters find alternate ways to finish school. Where this is a will, there is a way. Perhaps the will wasn't there anymore?

The main reason I am concerned about the BC teams is because they are so young. There is the physical growth factor: will she grow faster, or even out-grow him? what happens if/when her body changes that makes the tricks she is so good at doing today much more difficult? what if he grows in spurts, and has a couple of rough years while he gets used to his new body? interests change with age, and are they both going to continue to be as committed through the later teen years? and will the relationships survive over the long-term as both change and mature? There are some teams that manage these life transitions beautifully. There are just as many or more others that don't survive these changes. The lights are bright at Senior. It is much easier to be able to develop and change, and potentially even change partners, outside the glare at the lower levels. I put Crone/Poirier in this group that spent so many years together, but it would seem in the end had grown as people in different directions. It's sad. Ralph/Hill won Novice and then Junior the next year. But at Senior, the progress is not that quick, and the success has not been there for them these last few years. They are being passed by newer teams (ie. Paul/Islam). That's really tough, and they have survived, but not all teams do. The new judging system lends itself well to younger teams scoring big points on difficult tricks. But maybe I'm just still a traditionalist and think an ice dance team's best work comes when both are physically, artistically, emotionally mature. Virtue/Moir are the exception that prove the rule, but even for them I think their best work is yet to come.

And I really hope you are wrong about Crone. Why would you think she won't compete dance anymore?

NorthernDancers said:

But maybe I'm just still a traditionalist and think an ice dance team's best work comes when both are physically, artistically, emotionally mature. Virtue/Moir are the exception that prove the rule, but even for them I think their best work is yet to come.

And I really hope you are wrong about Crone. Why would you think she won't compete dance anymore?

Click to expand...

I'm with you on this one ND. I believe that while V/M of Canada, and their training mates, D/W and S/S may be the exception, there is nothing like a mature dance team that can convey the subtle nuances of the music. The top three are amazing now, but if they stick around until their mid-late twenties, I think ice dance will reach a new level.

As for Crone, I hope she stays in skating, whether she is in dance, or, perhaps, if she has the jumps--in singles.

According to someone posting on the Hubbell/ Donohue thread at FSU, Vanessa has been skating with Keiffer Hubbell at the Detroit Skating Club ( and is still).

I would think , though, with the Hubbell's placing 4th at their nationals ,it might be pretty tricky getting a release...and for sure it would be for Vanessa , having been last year's champion at hers.

Gee , I wish this could work out ( and in time for Canadians , please )

Pogue , do you know something we don't , or was that your inner misgivings speaking..?

Even if releases haven't been worked out, there is nothing to prevent this team, if they are in fact a team, from competing at Canadians. Not only is Vanessa one of the reigning Canadian Ice-Dance Champions but Paul and Vanessa also won a bronze medal at the GPF, as well as the gold medal Skate Canada last season. I would think that Keifer would have an easier time getting a release, considering that his international competitive career didn't include any major senior international medals.

If Vanessa is to skate with Keiffer, regardless of the country they represent, I wish that they stay with Krylova and Camerlengo. I have wished Vanessa and Paul to change coaches and come to Detroit last year while they were still a team. In any case, I am of firm belief that Krylova would package Vanessa and her partner far better than her previous coaching team.

I wish Vanessa the best luck.

By the way, if Vanessa and Keiffer team up:

Paul is skating with Piper Gilles, who use to partner with Zach Donohue, who is now partnering with Maddison Hubbell;
Keiffer Hubbell, who used to skate with Madi Hubbell, maybe teaming up with Vanessa, who used to skate with Paul;
Piper Gilles, whose brother Todd Gilles are now skating with Emily Samuelson, who used to partner with Evan Bates;
Evan Bates, who used to skate with Emily Samuelson, now team up with Maddison Chock, whose partner is the only one that did not participate in this year's ice dance partnering musical chair! He retired!

Wow! This would be awesome news! It would be probably easier to skate for Canada than the US, but maybe the US won't like that too much, since Piper is already expecting to skate for Canada? It will certainly make Canadians really interesting.

CARA said:

If Vanessa is to skate with Keiffer, regardless of the country they represent, I wish that they stay with Krylova and Camerlengo. I have wished Vanessa and Paul to change coaches and come to Detroit last year while they were still a team. In any case, I am of firm belief that Krylova would package Vanessa and her partner far better than her previous coaching team.

I wish Vanessa the best luck.

By the way, if Vanessa and Keiffer team up:

Paul is skating with Piper Gilles, who use to partner with Zach Donohue, who is now partnering with Maddison Hubbell;
Keiffer Hubbell, who used to skate with Madi Hubbell, maybe teaming up with Vanessa, who used to skate with Paul;
Piper Gilles, whose brother Todd Gilles are now skating with Emily Samuelson, who used to partner with Evan Bates;
Evan Bates, who used to skate with Emily Samuelson, now team up with Maddison Chock, whose partner is the only one that did not participate in this year's ice dance partnering musical chair! He retired!

Click to expand...

100% agree.

And really interesting season of musical chairs!

cara..Thanks for laying out the great switcheroo like that...I kept losing my way past step two.

colleen o'neill said:

cara..Thanks for laying out the great switcheroo like that...I kept losing my way past step two.

Click to expand...

Don't mention it. Took me a long time to figure out all the permutations right.

colleen o'neill said:

Pogue , do you know something we don't , or was that your inner misgivings speaking..?

Click to expand...

Inner misgivings only.