Grand Prix Season Preview: Canadian women rebuilding

nadster · Oct 4, 2011

The real problem and bottleneck in Canada is that our domestic competition structure is broken. At least in the US the local competitions have the right structure (event finals and all ). That makes them properly ready for going out to these other competitions.

Our juveniles and pre-juveniles don't even have a national competition and their highest competition for the year is sectionals ( and keep in mind PEI is considered a section ). When a summer or fall competition has multiple groups and no event finals it means that the best skaters within a section only see each other at sectionals. And the competition in smaller sections is a joke because those sections are just too small. Our skaters don't get the chance to properly push each other early.

There is lots of room for Canada to improve the quality of its domestic competitions without breaking the bank. Event finals at all competitions and merging some of the smaller sections ( no way PEI should be a section of its own ) would go a long way to improving the situation. For one I think all of the Maritimes should be one section for a start.

I am not against sending pre-juveniles and juveniles to the US but the domestic structure in Canada must be cleaned up first.

mskater93 · Oct 4, 2011

Our Regions are just as disproportionate as your Sections and some of the kids who will make JNs from the small Regions won't be as good as some kids staying home from the larger Regions. That's just the luck of the draw. Some Regions/Sections are really strong at some levels and it seems to move around.

I think if you vote with your money and you look at the cost, doing one competition with a FR may be the same as going to 3-4 other competitions where you only face off with the IR group and for long term development may be even MORE worth it. Of course, some parents won't want to see it that way because "little Suzy" won't win that FR versus getting that gold medal with a double Salchow and double toe loop at another competition.

CdnSkateWatcher · Oct 4, 2011

nadster said:
The real problem and bottleneck in Canada is that our domestic competition structure is broken. At least in the US the local competitions have the right structure (event finals and all ). That makes them properly ready for going out to these other competitions.

Our juveniles and pre-juveniles don't even have a national competition and their highest competition for the year is sectionals ( and keep in mind PEI is considered a section ). When a summer or fall competition has multiple groups and no event finals it means that the best skaters within a section only see each other at sectionals. And the competition in smaller sections is a joke because those sections are just too small. Our skaters don't get the chance to properly push each other early.

There is lots of room for Canada to improve the quality of its domestic competitions without breaking the bank. Event finals at all competitions and merging some of the smaller sections ( no way PEI should be a section of its own ) would go a long way to improving the situation. For one I think all of the Maritimes should be one section for a start.

I am not against sending pre-juveniles and juveniles to the US but the domestic structure in Canada must be cleaned up first.

Juves used to to to Junior Nationals; pre-juves are going to Sectoinals in some sections, which is good exposure. However, the LTAD model seems to be driving some of the competitive structures in terms of "when" and "how much" the Juves and Pre-Juves are competing, and even the PN kids. I find that this year, my PN moving to Nov kid has had extremely limited opportunities to compete, even working across all of COS, EOS and WOS; last year, we had far more opportunities.

Violet Bliss · Oct 4, 2011

In spite of all the explanations presented by the very knowledgeable posters, my basic question on this issue remains unexamined and unanswered.

The discussion has focused on the system, especially for the lower level young skaters. Don't the same conditions apply to the boys? Do they not go through the same system? Why do we have such different results at the Senior level?

Canada never has the same depth in both Men and Ladies as the US, where a number of talented skaters have to fight for a place on the National podium as well as limited spots in international competitions. We usually have a unquestionable top skater in each discipline who leads by a large margin. The difference is, our top Men are World Champion calibre, most of whom do become World Champions, sometimes in multiple years. And there is always the Next One in the pipe line, somtimes with two top guys contending for the National and Worlds titles. Why is it so different with the female skaters? The top Ladies are rarely World Champions or even medalists and there is almost always a concern about to whom the torch can be passed.

Why the gender difference? What accounts for such a stark contrast?

CdnSkateWatcher · Oct 4, 2011

SkateFiguring said:
In spite of all the explanations presented by the very knowledgeable posters, my basic question on this issue remains unexamined and unanswered.

The discussion has focused on the system, especially for the lower level young skaters. Don't the same conditions apply to the boys? Do they not go through the same system? Why do we have such different results at the Senior level?

Canada never has the same depth in both Men and Ladies as the US, where a number of talented skaters have to fight for a place on the National podium as well as limited spots in international competitions. We usually have a unquestionable top skater in each discipline who leads by a large margin. The difference is, our top Men are World Champion calibre, most of whom do become World Champions, sometimes in multiple years. And there is always the Next One in the pipe line, somtimes with two top guys contending for the National and Worlds titles. Why is it so different with the female skaters? The top Ladies are rarely World Champions or even medalists and there is almost always a concern about to whom the torch can be passed.

Why the gender difference? What accounts for such a stark contrast?

From the perspective of the parent of a MALE competitive skater, the opportunties for skater development are far higher at the lower end. Whereas 100 girls are competing for the 10 spots at a talent ID seminar, a training camp, etc., many sections would be turning handsprings to even have 10 male skaters (if you don't believe me, look at the number of entries, per section, for the recent Juvie, Pn, Nov competitions.) The boys get a disproportionate access to Section training opportunities, and, frankly, they get more attention due to their scarcity.

Interestingly, the boys are highly visible due to their much lower numbers, and any failures or successes are more obvious, which may make performance pressure higher ... I could easily list off for you the names of all of the boys in the EOS , WOS, NOS and COS at the Juvie, Pre Nov, Novice and Junior levels, and I could probably tell you their placements over the past couple of comps ... they all know each other and their strengths and weaknesses and how they are doing ... just because it is such a narrow field ...

Blades of Passion · Oct 4, 2011

I think in large part it comes down to cultural differences. I don't feel that Canadians particularly want their women to be graceful and lithe, rather they want them to be strong and robust. This unfortunately means that Canadian women suffer in comparison to other competitors in the World when it comes to spins, spirals, and body line.

You could then say "Okay, if that's so, then why hasn't Canada produced more female skaters like Irina Slutskaya?" (although, even in this case, Irina Slutskaya had some of the best spins in the World and wouldn't have achieved her level of success without that aspect of her skating being so good. Russian dance culture surely influenced her greatness in that area). I believe cultural differences again come into play here - Canadians have a more stable government and society. In recent Russian history, their citizens have faced lack of food and poor conditions in general. For a Russian athlete, success is a means of living. They need to push themselves and devote their entire lives to the craft so that they can survive. Canadian women don't have that same essential drive. If they don't become the best skater in the World, oh well, life goes on and they will pursue something else.

Violet Bliss · Oct 4, 2011

Good points. However, CdnSkateWatcher, one can also argue that there is a much larger talent pool for selection for the girls. There should be a higher probability of exceptional talents at any given period.

And, Blade of Passion, your survival theory applies to the Men too, so still why the gender disparity in Canada? As well, Jose Chouinard was a feminine and stylish skater with nerves being her biggest problem.

In addressing this subject, I think they are two main issues, technical and competitiveness, to consider.

eta. I think different expectations is part of the problem and viscious cycle at this point, as examplified by the bitter disappontment of Chan's Olympic 5th place finish and Phaneauf's celebrated 5th place at Worlds. We expect our best Men to be on Worlds and Olympic Podium if not on the top step. We comfort ourselves and our best Ladies for finishing in top 10.

Dragonlady · Oct 4, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
I think in large part it comes down to cultural differences. I don't feel that Canadians particularly want their women to be graceful and lithe, rather they want them to be strong and robust.

You couldn't be more wrong. In fact, girls who display line and grace are pushed by Skate Canada, even if they can't land the jumps. Ashton Tessier being a good example. Time after time this girl was given international assignments but I don't think I've ever seen her land a clean triple jump although I'm told she has. Cynthia Phaneuf got a huges push from skate Canada over Joannie Rochette at the start of their senior careers, Phaneuf being more feminine and graceful.

There was a skater from Edmonton, Amanda Billings, who was also given far more international opportunities than her jumping ability would seem to support, over much stronger jumpers. She was sent to Junior Worlds 2005 over Meagan Duhamel who had all of her triples and who had beaten Kimmie Meissner in winning a JGP event and gone to the Jr. GP Final. Billings who is graceful and balletic finished 11th.

Skate Canada dearly wants an ice princess, but our best Canadian girls have been more athletic than balletic.

blue dog · Oct 4, 2011

Dragonlady said:
You couldn't be more wrong. In fact, girls who display line and grace are pushed by Skate Canada, even if they can't land the jumps. Ashton Tessier being a good example. Time after time this girl was given international assignments but I don't think I've ever seen her land a clean triple jump although I'm told she has. Cynthia Phaneuf got a huges push from skate Canada over Joannie Rochette at the start of their senior careers, Phaneuf being more feminine and graceful.

There was a skater from Edmonton, Amanda Billings, who was also given far more international opportunities than her jumping ability would seem to support, over much stronger jumpers. She was sent to Junior Worlds 2005 over Meagan Duhamel who had all of her triples and who had beaten Kimmie Meissner in winning a JGP event and gone to the Jr. GP Final. Billings who is graceful and balletic finished 11th.

Skate Canada dearly wants an ice princess, but our best Canadian girls have been more athletic than balletic.

Well, there are always exceptions. For years, Mirai Leung was pushed...and she was far from an ice princess.

nadster · Oct 4, 2011

Dragonlady said:
There was a skater from Edmonton, Amanda Billings, who was also given far more international opportunities than her jumping ability would seem to support, over much stronger jumpers. She was sent to Junior Worlds 2005 over Meagan Duhamel who had all of her triples and who had beaten Kimmie Meissner in winning a JGP event and gone to the Jr. GP Final. Billings who is graceful and balletic finished 11th.

Skate Canada dearly wants an ice princess, but our best Canadian girls have been more athletic than balletic.

This really shows Skate Canada's inconsistent policy between men and women.

Duhamel unfortunately tended to perform better at internationals than at nationals and that was her undoing.

The thing is that we can currently say the same thing about Rogozine at this point. He also performs much better at internationals than at nationals. However, Rogozine got to go to JW despite his poor nationals performance. If Slkate Canada was consistent either Duhamel would go to JW ( despite a poor nationals ) or Rogozine would not get JW ( despite making the JGPF ).

It is funny how SC will take into account international performance when choosing the JW team for the men but it has no bearing for the ladies.

We have several times chosen skaters for JW like Kang who have an OK nationals performance despite repeated failures on the JGP circuit and been burned by this.

nadster · Oct 4, 2011

mskater93 said:
Our Regions are just as disproportionate as your Sections and some of the kids who will make JNs from the small Regions won't be as good as some kids staying home from the larger Regions. That's just the luck of the draw. Some Regions/Sections are really strong at some levels and it seems to move around.

The population differences between sections are much larger in Canada. Prince Edward Island has a total population of 141,000. Compare it to Quebec ( our largest section since Ontario is divided into 4 sections ) with a population of 8 million. Do you have a situation where one section has 70 times the population base of another ?

silverpond · Oct 4, 2011

I've wondered, too, why the Canadian women haven't been a more consistent force on the World and Olympic stage. There have been numerous wonderful Canadian champion women, as one of the posters listed. Canadian women have a wonderful tradition of winning World and Olympic medals.

Canada definitely is a winter sports country, with the kind of climate that makes people embrace winter sports. While ice hockey is probably the top winter sport, figure skating definitely gets a lot of attention. Kurt Browning was regailed as a "rock star on skates" during his eligible skating career.

I certainly cannot presume to know anything about the Canadian Figure Skating Association and/or how the system works, as far as developing skaters into competitors is concerned. Perhaps there is a lack of desire to train young girls to compete hard to win. Yes, it's important to be ladylike, have good manners, and present a pleasant persona - but that doesn't win titles unless there is "fire in the belly" to compete to win. I'm not talking about taking out the competition by bashing the knee of your closest competitor (heaven forbid), trash talking, or anything "nasty". I just think the girls from Canada need to have more of the competitive edge - the "eye of the tiger" - in order to win medals.

If this sounds way, way, off base, please excuse me. As always, it's only my two cents.

CdnSkateWatcher · Oct 4, 2011

silverpond said:
Yes, it's important to be ladylike, have good manners, and present a pleasant persona - but that doesn't win titles unless there is "fire in the belly" to compete to win. I'm not talking about taking out the competition by bashing the knee of your closest competitor (heaven forbid), trash talking, or anything "nasty". I just think the girls from Canada need to have more of the competitive edge - the "eye of the tiger" - in order to win medals.

If this sounds way, way, off base, please excuse me. As always, it's only my two cents.

If you're ever in a room with Gabby Daleman, who was referenced earlier in this thread ... you'll see an intensity that is very competitive, incredibly focussed, and in fact intimidating to some other skaters. She is a force in herself. Which could explain why she is doing so well at her age ... and her little brother is also racking up the points in Pre-Novice at the moment.

blue_idealist · Oct 4, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
True, though Rogozine and Reynolds are better than LaCoste and Samson/Szmiett (whoever's next in line).

Diane Szmiett has retired from skating..

Blades of Passion · Oct 5, 2011

SkateFiguring said:
And, Blade of Passion, your survival theory applies to the Men too, so still why the gender disparity in Canada? As well, Jose Chouinard was a feminine and stylish skater with nerves being her biggest problem.

Chouinard did not have great body line or fluidity or flexibility.

As for the gender gap, I think Canadian men could be more competitive because what's accepted as a "great male figure skater" are things that Canadian culture finds appealing in their Men. Whereas on the female side, it's the ice princess thing that is considered ideal and that seems to run counter to how Canadians see their women and/or how Canadian women tend to be built physically. There might also be the argument that Canadian men have more pressure placed upon them to be breadwinners, whereas Canadian women may only be expected to be great mothers and homemakers to be considered a worthwhile individual within the culture.

This runs counter to American culture in that everyone in America is constantly being pushed by "The American Dream" and the idea that anyone can be rich and famous if they try hard enough. Thus, in addition to the ice princess image being more sought after in American culture, female skaters feel pushed harder by society to do something that will bring them notoriety and great personal gain. I believe there is definitely much more of a "money = happiness" / "net worth = personal worth" attitude in America. Canada is clearly more laid back and communal; look at how they value universal health care and believe in helping each other out rather than trying to simply get ahead of everyone else.

Dragonlady said:
You couldn't be more wrong.

As usual, you have a narrow-minded and knee-jerk reaction. There are many factors to consider and of course you can't be bothered to actually think about any of them. FYI, Skate Canada does not define and create the whole of Canadian culture.

doubleflutz · Oct 5, 2011

SkateFiguring said:
And, Blade of Passion, your survival theory applies to the Men too, so still why the gender disparity in Canada? As well, Jose Chouinard was a feminine and stylish skater with nerves being her biggest problem.

This is just a guess, but hockey? I know kids of both genders play it in Canada much more than in America and learn to skate that way, but I bet there are still more little boys who get into skating through hockey in Canada than little girls. There certainly are very few little American girls who come in through hockey, at least not until very very very recently.

mskater93 · Oct 5, 2011

nadster said:
The population differences between sections are much larger in Canada. Prince Edward Island has a total population of 141,000. Compare it to Quebec ( our largest section since Ontario is divided into 4 sections ) with a population of 8 million. Do you have a situation where one section has 70 times the population base of another ?

No, but one Region has a group of <20 Intermediates and another 108 (so 5X the number of skaters) which is a HUGE difference in competitiveness. There was talk of "redistricting" but it didn't happen...

Dragonlady · Oct 5, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
FYI, Skate Canada does not define and create the whole of Canadian culture.

No it doesn't, but it does decide which skaters to put in development programs, which skaters to financially support and which skaters to send to international events, so you could say that Skate Canada defines what it wants to see in its Canadian women skaters.

Someone upthread noted that Skate Canada pushed Mira Leung, but that wouldn't be entirely correct. Mira's mother pushed Mira Leung and pushed her daughter up from Novice to senior long before she was ready and refused to consider having her skate in juniors. There was no one else at the time so they let it stand but over the years had meetings with Mrs. Leung to discuss various aspects of her training and packaging, mostly to no good results. Since Mira could rotate jumps, more or less, and no one else was doing so at the time, she got the international assignments, but Skate Canada was never really happy with Leung or her mother.

thumbyskates · Oct 5, 2011

I think Canada is doing a terrible job of developing athletes in some ways and excellent in others. Skate Canada is creating well-rounded athletes who go on to be great human beings with determination, work ethic, and no injuries. The problem is those people don't often make champions in the world of figure skating. It's win/lose.

They've pushed this, the "Long-Term Athlete Development" and while there are good points, especially in terms of preventing burn-out and injury...it should be acknowledged that kids will not become champions under this model (very few anyways).

I started to go on and on about numbers. There IS talent out there. There was a PreNovice girl at Summer Skate in BC who landed triples. There are Novice girls landing them. BC is offering money for those landing jumps harder than the norm in their programs. This is an attempt to get triples rotated. It's working. We're see triples and double axels.

Anyways, it's my personal belief that LTAD is making things worse. Not better...and SC needs a new plan.

Violet Bliss · Oct 5, 2011

Dragonlady, I think BOP was just making clear his somewhat diplomatic earlier statement about the big boned Canadian women from whom the Canadian Ladies skaters are selected. The graceful and lithe LA princesses not withstanding, the fact is the American ladies are not generally smaller than the Canadians, or most other nationalities on earth. Now that the Babushkas of the Cold War era have turned into beautiful sexy gold diggers and super models, the strong and robust women dwell in the Canadian igloos.

thumbyskates, you made a point I had thought of. To be competitive with the wonder babes, aka Polinas, of the world, SC has to reconsider and modify their protective model. We are proud of our mature champion Ladies with longevities, but we can't afford to discover and nurture them too late. I remember SC's decision to keep Phaneuf and Sandhu from Worlds as too young and unseasoned when they became new national champions and both turned out uncompetitive internationally, albeit with other personal factors involved. At least they have not held back Chan and now Nguyan. Are they still more protective of the girls, thus the gender bias, justified or not, contibuting partly to the gender disparity?

Grand Prix Season Preview: Canadian women rebuilding

nadster

mskater93

CdnSkateWatcher

Violet Bliss

CdnSkateWatcher

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Violet Bliss

Dragonlady

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

nadster

nadster

silverpond

CdnSkateWatcher

blue_idealist

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

doubleflutz

mskater93

Dragonlady

thumbyskates

Violet Bliss

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