Lysacek out of Grand Prix; at odds with USFS

Tonichelle said:

I don't think pulling out of an event over money means he doesn't want to go forward. I guess I'm confused to your question.

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I mean if making money is so much a concern for a comeback, why compete? Competing is the worst way of making money. I suspect that Lysacek is not really into coming back. The main melody of comeback is around "money".

Well, that makes no hardship on me. Whether he is really coming back or not, I don't really root for him to come back.

Lysacek was pretty sassy about the USFSA in the previous Hersh article, laying the groundwork for not being responsible for eventual non participation. I have no idea about all the intricacies and negotiations or who said what, but it's ridiculous for this to happen so close to the event.

eta. I wonder if there could be an issue over compensating for his fewer appearances in the SOI shows?

SkateFiguring said:

I wonder if there could be an issue over compensating for his fewer appearances in the SOI shows?

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That's a thought.

No matter what price Lysacek has asked, we can be sure that it was more than USFSA was willing to give.

I am flabbergasted.....I have only been followinging competition for 8 years or so and here I thought this was an amateur competition!
I had no trouble with the federations helping skaters with the enormous costs of competing by letting them do shows and giving
financial help. But skating for dollars? This isnt Fashion on Ice....I am not here to dump on Evan or anyone but if my federation had helped me
by using monies from the memorial fun et al and got me to a high place, and I had made a bunch of money at that high place, I personally would feel some sort of debt
to repay to my sport. When Sarah H. decided to not come to SkateAmerica 2002 Spokane, Michelle Kwan graciously elected to come and "fill the gap".
I'm not saying our skaters shouldnt be supported....I give bucks so they can...but it seems to me for very little effort, Evan could leave LA and get to Ontario and try
his programs in front of a crowd before nationals. Remember what happened to Yu-Na when she skipped the season and just skated at Worlds?
I am now wondering what else I dont know about this sport.....OK...rant over.....

As Toni said, this sort of thing happens all the time. I just think in this case, USFSA was trying to act as both big time professional sport (where money counts first) and a small time amateur sport (where personal relationships count first) and got caught.

In tennis, appearance fee issues come up routinely. I suspect, though we may never know for certain, that this may not just be about an appearance fee. As others have speculated and Hirsch's interview a few weeks ago hinted at, this may be more of a rights fee issue.

Evan's name and likeness are legally his own and he can charge for the right to use them, just as an author's books are copyrighted. Being and OGM, they have marketable monetary value. If he felt they were using his name and image to boost ticket sales and increase their profit margin, then he had every right to ask for a portion of the proceeds.

That is in fact the logic behind appearance fees. It ensures that the event holder does not underpay the athlete by restrictng him/her only to the prize money available. Prize money is often deliberately carved out as a specific dollar amount regardless of profit before the event is held. Of course, that protects the event against some loss if ticket sales are poor. But when ticket sales are boosted by the promotional image of a participant, the participant can rightfully argue that they should be given a share of the added profit rather than just any prize money earned. If Evan's agent was involved in this, I would not be surprised at all if that's what this came down to.

Evan has better train hard for his Nationals. There are only two spots for Worlds and we know judging can be funny at the US Nationals.

Where was the passion and pure love for the sport then?

I guess I've been unfair to Evan's legal right.

Adam Rippon twitted:

@DouglasRazzano YES YES YES!!! When I read this I yelled out a big "YES!!" So happy for you. You earned it!
5 hours ago

Douglas Razzano called this the best birthday present he'd ever been given!

Bluebonnet said:

Where was the passion and pure love for the sport then?

I guess I've been unfair to Evan's legal right.

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An athlete can be passionate about his/her sport and still fight to be recognized for his worth. After all this is the year of athlete pay/rights vs owners/leagues/federations' profit margins. We wouldn't begrudge a business exercising the right to charge a fair price for their product. Evan is his own product.

This sort of thing has been going on in sports that have traditionally operated under the rules of amateurism and shamateurism for decades. Given that skating is an individual sport without leagues, teams or owners, the best analogy to these arguements can be found in sports like tennis and golf where national federations fill that role.

In tennis, players in major events had to maintain official amateur status in order to be allowed entry prior to 1968. Once they started being paid, even for outside interests, they were barred. Still these were people with wives, husbands and families to support, so many of the very best left the majors behind for makeshift pro tours as soon as they made a name for themselves by winning a few big events. That led to a constant turnover in the amateur ranks with new champions every few years, but it was argued eventually that the very best players were pros. (Any of this sound familiar in skating?) Of course if you dug below the surface, the "amateur" events were paying larger and larger appearance fees under the table to hold on to as many players as possible. Everyone knew about it, but no one acknowledged it. Thus the term shamateurism. Finally, in 68 tennis became open to pros (thus the term "open era") and everyone was on the same competitive playing field again.

But the national federations still tried to operate for several years as if they were still in the amateur era. They dictated all the terms to the players about rules, appearances, conduct, pay, dress code, sponsorship, ticket prices, scheduling while also leveraging their relationships with them to promote events and make significant profits. They essentially treated them as employees. Eventually, things came to a head in 1973 when a Yugoslav player declined to play Davis Cup for his country. His federation suspended him and Wimbledon denied him entry into the tournment draw despite having an adequate ranking. The men's players association united around him and almost all the top players from non-communist countries elected to boycott the tournament. It was a huge international sports story and is still talked about today (especially in this climate). The tournament officials were caught off guard. They were certain they had all the power. They still held the event, but it's outcome has always been view with an asterisk because the very best did not play it. Following that fiasco, and players' rights issues gradually improved, still nearly forty years later, they are not on par with other big time sports. Most of the power still lies with with the federations, the grand slams and the regular tour events. Players are still paid a shockingly low percentage of profits have virtually no say in scheduling, pension, and health issues. For example, at this year's US Open, the players received 12% of the revenue as prize money and per diem fees. In the NFL, players players get 53% of the revenue as a result of their new deal.

Now I recognize all of the revenue challenges that USFSA and ISU face and that they are not the NFL or pro tennis, but the principle of fair compensation still exists regardless of status. These skaters are essentially being treated as employees and are forfeiting the right to control their image and the money that can be earned from it. If there were no direct prize money, as in the Olympics (where national federations and sponsors step in to fill the pay void), there would be no issue. But since prize money is involved, this is a pro sport. As such, the athlete has the right to negotiate in his own best interest at the very least. At best, they should have a seat at the table to help craft the rules of the sport, address the health issues involved and consider pension issues for those invovled in the sport long term.

My point is this is nothing new and is actually symptomatic of a larger issue in sports in general. All the major sports are addressing these concerns this year. Evan is not unique in this and should not be singled out for his choice.

CoyoteChris said:

I am flabbergasted.....I have only been followinging competition for 8 years or so and here I thought this was an amateur competition!

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ITA and what you wrote I won't take as rant but as reason.
I took this as a demand from Evan to the USFSA some huge compensation for using his portrait rights.
But I've never heard of federations unable to use their amateur eligible skaters' photos to be shown on promotion means of the events they organize.
Evan's request loses its legitimacy with the fact that he let USFSA expect him to show up in GPs.
He may have had the right to get assigned and later pull out (which is not a very fair attitude IMO), but to demand something by threating with his option of pulling out is out of question.

I have nothing personal against Evan but if you keep tolerating such move as this, federation will lose its authority in the end.
I hope this is a misunderstanding of his statement but then again, Evan owes his fans a more earnest explanation.

ETA: Tennis and Golf are pro sports and not amateur sports such as figure skating.

I think you entirely missed my point. What skating is going through now and has been for the last 15 years or so is the same kind of growing pains other formerly amateur sports have experiences regarding issues of compensation, marketing, sponsorship and athlete rights. If used tennis and golf to illustrate the arc that these events tend to follow over time.

This is not the 80's. Olympic eligible sports are not have not been truly amateur for decades. To continue to pretend that they are is a waste of time and a sham. All of these athletes are paid some combination of prize money, performance bonuses, appearance fees, training stipends and sponsorship dollars and frequently make out quite handsomely. The very best who can maximize these income sources do not hold down traditional 9-5 jobs. Their sport is their job. How else would they be able to continue to compete for multiple years/Olympic cycles? During true amateurism, one cycle was usually all an athelete could afford once he/she reached the elite level if he did not have a huge communist machine supporting him. Now they reach that level and stay in as long as their bodies will allow them. Meryl Davis tweeted that she just bought a condo this summer. That was not paid with money from some part-time job at Home Depot. She is a professional athlete. She earns her money through skating. Yes there are still residual rules from the old days concerning appearances in tours and pro events, but there are so many loopholes that have been established over time and by national federations that they really don't matter. Plushenko is a perfect example of that.

It may be nice to try to think of skating as some sort of pure amateur pursuit untainted by money, but that's simply false. It has been since the ISU started paying prize money to hold on the eligible skaters, thus killing off the pro circuit. All the national federations pay to hold on to their best and brightest as long as they can because there is no guarantee that the next skater will be as successful and generate as much revenue. (BTW anyone who thinks Kwan stepping in for Hughes in 2002 at SA was done purely out of the goodness of her heart is really kidding themselves. If her agent was worth his salt, she would have been paid a huge appearance fee, likely augmented by the last minute entry and fully supported by ABC/ESPN.)

Tonichelle said:

I was hoping for Keegan :no:

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Yeah that would have been a better choice.

jcoates said:

I think you entirely missed my point.

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What you say does not explain the sport's status outside USA, especially Japan.

Your point is explaining one of the aspects of the reality in US or NA, (probabaly in a very accurate way) but doesn't justify the actions of the participants that bring the sport to a more "shamateur" level.
This sport, however nominal, is amatuer in terms of competitions that start from sub-regionals to Nationals and ultimately to Worlds.
Excessive actions that'll drive this sport to a more "pro" situation is at least nothing to be praised.
Tennis and Golf are sports that get their results without any aesthetcal judging concerned and can be a pro "sport".
Maybe speed skating can be the same, but Figure Skating, certainly not.

For the clarity of this sport, it should be more amateur than it actually is shamateur. Just MHO.

jcoates said:

An athlete can be passionate about his/her sport and still fight to be recognized for his worth. After all this is the year of athlete pay/rights vs owners/leagues/federations' profit margins. We wouldn't begrudge a business exercising the right to charge a fair price for their product. Evan is his own product.

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that's true, I have a passion for photography - but I still get annoyed when someone "honors" me by wanting my work free of charge.

I didnt know athletes would be paid to appear in GPs by their federation. This happen to all host GP countries? I m not against paying athletes to appear anyway, for all the sport spirit federations earn a lot over the athletes, it is a much expensive sport to train to and I m not that romantic.

jcoates said:

Yes there are still residual rules from the old days concerning appearances in tours and pro events, but there are so many loopholes that have been established over time and by national federations that they really don't matter. Plushenko is a perfect example of that.

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Plushenko is a perfect example of ISU loophole own rules, not his federation.

Sorceror...How is skating's existence as a judged sport (aesthetic or otherwise) in any way a reason for it to not be professional? Ballroom dance is judged aethetically, considered a sport and competed completely professionally for prize money. Forgive me, but that is a nonsensical position.

Regarding the sub-regional to world structure of the sport, that is really no different than any pro sport which may start at a junior league level, progress to a club or school level, then college/futures/challenger/minor league and finally professional tour/league and Olympic level. Tennis has a very similar structure to skating in that regard, even down to similarities by country. Kids in the US start competing in local events by age usually at their home club, progress to state or regional level, then national age group level (12, 14, 16 and finally 18 and under). By this stage they often leave home for the best coaching. Eventually they either choose to turn pro or defer that decision and go to college. Once professional, a ranking must be earned, usually by playing sub-tour level events (futures and challengers). Finally main tour level is reached for the best players. In France and Germany, their tennis system is very similar to the club system used in skating there. In Japan and other Asian countries, they too have very strong federations just as in skating which exercise far more influence on the players than in the west. Skating is not unique in any of this. Heck even the junior teams earn prize money at international events, something pro sports like tennis and golf can't say. To presume that skating is somehow exempt or special versus other sports is a fallacy.

Insistence that skating has not yet or should not go over to professional status is equally eroneous. It has already happened. you can't go backward. My point is that the leadership is in denial about that fact and is acting under a paradigm which no longer functionally exists.

The situation with Japan's federation actually supports my point. They have a strong federation that has chosen to be more controlling of their skaters than other countries. Nevertheless, regardless of federation or country, skaters are finding ways to make money off of their skills as skaters while still compteting as Olympic eligible athletes. They often do this to supplement the stipends they receive for training and some living expenses. The denial that that practice exists and attempts to forestall it with rigid rules and practices are the very hallmarks of shamateurism. If your point of view is to actually be applied in a real world setting, then every federation or national government (or some private benefactor) would have to take complete financial responsiblity for the welfare of its athletes, down to lodging, food, health care, clothing, coaching, transport, and any other essentials. That's no longer feasible in most Olympic level sports and with the current cost of living and difficult financial climate. So it's every man for himself in a lot of cases. That may not be ideal, but it's the reality we are faced with.

It's very naive and insist on competitive purity when faced with those circumstances. No Olympic athlete competes solely for the love of the sport, to represent their country or any other such noble reasons. Those are all factors, yes, but not exclusively so in this day and age. If they are good enough to get to that level, then they and their families have likely sacrificed enormously to get there, incurring enormous debt along the way. So part of the incentive is financial. Another is pure human nature..to simply say they are the best.

As skating fans, we are used to the skater having pretty much no power. The only time they are in control is when they are on the ice. Otherwise, someone else is calling the shots virtually the entire time. The parents, the judges, the coaches, the choreographers and the federations. That's true in part because most skaters are under age or at least begin competing as senior while still under age. It creates a mindset of deference and obedience to those around them who hold the power. Evan is a man now. He's had a taste of independence and has developed a reputation for taking significant amounts of control over his own training and career choices. He is clearly unwilling to continue to play the role of the submissive athlete who is subject to the federation's whims. That is not what we are used to seeing. I would suggest that his actions be examined from that perspective. He's asserting himself. If you were selling a house or negotiating a pre-nup or being hired on a contract basis, you would want to make sure the terms are at least fair and preferably as advantageous to you as possible within reason. If they are not, you are entitled to walk away and try again elsewhere. That doesn't mean your goals have changed. And it's not underhanded or greedy. That's responsible. He's not operating as the USFSA charity or cash cow and he just let them know it.

ETA: Seniorita, as far as I understand the rules, the ISU defers to the national federations to individually determine their own standards or that constitutes eligibility (i.e. show, tours and competitions).

^ I think that was not the case of Plushenko. There are specific ISU rules about the shows etc..ANyway thats old news now.

Very interesting dialogue here. I am enjoying sorcerer and jcoates remarks very much. And learning alot. I have seen many times advertising of skater's images in selling events, and I see nothing wrong with that if a skater is an amateur belonging to an organization. In fact, I would not be suprised if there were a waiver that any skater who takes money from the USFSA gives up their image to them as long as they stay Amatuer status. Not knowing much, I would think that before the USFSA could give Evan's name to the ISU as a participant in SkateAmerica, Evan would have to say yes. Of course, he always has a right to pull. Personally, as an American tax payer and the USFSA being a non profit org that doesnt pay taxes, I think I have a right to see its books, but I guess no one else agrees with me. I would like to see just how much the big guns are getting to attend events.

One thing is for sure. At SkateAmerica Portland, the attendance was so bad they were giving away tickets to the Gala, and there were still pleanty of empty seats.....When Tiger dropped out of golf for awhile, viewer numbers plummetted. Sports needs its stars. But the stars need the sport. I do not know Mr. L personally. And he hasnt given us his side and he doesnt have to. I am sure he commands a good buck for Stars on ICE
and deserves it if he wishes to go that route...but even those seats are emptying. I am sure Evan is set for life and doesnt have to skate. But if he wants to go to Sochi, I think it is a big mistake to not attend a back yard event and keep his edge. .
I can tell you that there have been cutbacks at the USFSA and certain people are out on the street. I dont know how their financial situation is but I do hope the Rise DVD brings them some bucks, cause those empty seats and poor TV ratings cant help them. I am just thankful that some commentators can sit on a couch in New York and call the common GP feed and bring it to Universal sports.
I do think it odd that Evan wouldnt take the offered bucks, assuming they exist, as his coach is not cheep, nor is the ice, costumes, etc. and it is a long way to Sochi. Perhaps some day a skater will write a book and erase my ignorance about this sport....right now, today, I guess I am back to square one trying to understand it. But the truth is out there.

I don't see why he would even submit his name without making a deal with the USFSA first! So he submits his name and gets two assignments and is all like "oh the fed is using me to promote something I signed up for? I had no idea that could happen!" This doesn't close the door on the future but maybe next time the US fed wont use him to promote? Or just give him what he asks for. I would like to have seen how he would have done against Chan in France! Kozuka and him in Skate America may have had the exact same jumps if Lysacek added a quad to his free skate so that could have been interesting (and Kozuka didn't add like a quad to his SP).

And you must sign up for GP at the beginning of the season right? there is no way someone can not sign up for a GP and then get a GP? Though does that mean Razzano applied for a GP? Because Plushenko didn't sign up for any GPs so he couldn't have been invited to CoR as a host pick? Maybe Lysacek doesn't have to apply and next time can just do one and be a host pick and that's it?

Evan is never coming back. It was all a big show to keep his name in the public eye so he can stretch out his cash flow period a bit longer. He wants to be comfortably set for life after several years after all. I wouldnt be surprised if we hear another rumoured comeback that never happens before the 2014 Olympics. I dont think he has the guts to put himself on the line and probably do poorly like Sasha Cohen did, plus unlike Cohen he already has his major titles and has no hope fo another one.