LADIES LONG PROGRAM Thread

JeffyJosephNCA · Oct 23, 2011

Congrats on Alissa & Carolina for the gold & silver. Great to see Alissa being a fighter and not imploding like before.

LOL at highway robbery, um, Alissa won the SP & Carolina won the FS, but the overall total wins the competition...

ImaginaryPogue · Oct 23, 2011

Mathman said:
One drawback to the CoP is that the SP leader can back into the championship.

I do not understand how people can cheer so lustily for the virtues of the CoP, yet cry foul so loudly at CoP results in actual competitions.

That's largely because you mischaracterize why we like COP and why we complain at the results.

jenaj · Oct 23, 2011

I'm fine with the results. Carolina won the long program, as she should have, but Alissa had a 4 point lead in the short program.
With the carryover from short to long under COP, this is an normal result. Under 6.0, Carolina would have won. I preferred the 6.0 system to COP, but the system is what it is and until (or unless) it is changed, this will not be the first time we see a result like this.

emma · Oct 23, 2011

Serious Business said:
I am against bad, inconsistent and unfair judging whether it's under the CoP or any other system. And it seems to me most people who say Kostner should've won are saying that the CoP was not applied correctly to her and Alissa's scores when it comes to the PCS. So we're for the CoP, and against this panel of judges.

I too am against bad,unfair, or inconsistent judging. And it may be that Alissa benefited from any one of these three, which would not make me happy. I am happy that she upped her ante and held it together. And, I felt that she and Carolina were the undisputed medalists; if the order should be different, I'm totally willing to ponder or even accept that.

To quote Mathman: "one drawback to the CoP is that the SP leader can back into the championship.

I do not understand how people can cheer so lustily for the virtues of the CoP, yet cry foul so loudly at CoP results in actual competitions."

I am not sure what to say. For some it is a drawback, for others it is exciting that you can get a lead and keep it despite the LP. For me, that is not soooo exciting and makes me feel like not watching the LPs sometimes. But the reverse is also true -- that it is not over a la S/S in the LP today for pairs.

About the second part of the quote; I'm sure you follow skating and posters better than I; but I'm not sure that I see the "cheer the virtues/cry foul at the results" pairing as clearly as you do. As for me, I have "issues" with CoP and things I like about it; I love watching competitions, and sometimes I understand the outcomes. Other times, I don't; still others, I think i do until I look at the protocols....But, I felt the same confusions with 6.0 on many occasions, but didn't have the internet or score sheets to turn to....so, what I know I like is the internet, chat boards, and score sheets.

Mathman · Oct 23, 2011

Serious Business said:
I am against bad, inconsistent and unfair judging whether it's under the CoP or any other system. And it seems to me most people who say Kostner should've won are saying that the CoP was not applied correctly to her and Alissa's scores when it comes to the PCS. So we're for the CoP, and against this panel of judges.

Imaginary Pogue said:
That's largely because you mischaracterize why we like COP and why we complain at the results.

I believe that we should think hard about that position. We like the judging system, but we usually think the wrong guy won.

Violet Bliss · Oct 23, 2011

Mathman said:
I believe that we should think hard about that position. We like the judging system, but we usually think the wrong guy won.

Too many "we" here, each refering to a different set or subset of people. Malcontents and protesters are the loudest people, but they don't necessarily represent the majority "we".

Tonichelle · Oct 23, 2011

Mathman said:
I believe that we should think hard about that position. We like the judging system, but we usually think the wrong guy won.

is this a royal we? I don't "usually" think the wrong skater(s) won.

bekalc · Oct 23, 2011

Mathman said:
I believe that we should think hard about that position. We like the judging system, but we usually think the wrong guy won.

My biggest problem with the system is how easy it is to let judge hide behind numbers. In this case it was close enough but don't know how the judges can justify giving Alissa higher PCS, and that alone made the difference.

demarinis5 · Oct 23, 2011

Congratulations to Alissa, Caro and Vicktoria. Beautifully skated program by Carolina. Her program was the class of the field.

burntBREAD · Oct 23, 2011

Pretty sad for Haruka and Caroline, both of whom I was rooting for. They needed just an OK program around 91-92 points to medal--

Unlike Takahiko Kozuka, who got 3rd with 2nd places in both short and long programs, Viktoria Helgesson got 5th(!) in both segments and ended up 3rd. :laugh:

Such is life.

skfan · Oct 23, 2011

JeffyJosephNCA said:
Congrats on Alissa & Carolina for the gold & silver. Great to see Alissa being a fighter and not imploding like before.

LOL at highway robbery, um, Alissa won the SP & Carolina won the FS, but the overall total wins the competition...

AC didn't deserve the lead after the short. AND AC should have trailed by many more points in the long.

Mathman · Oct 23, 2011

skfan said:
AC didn't deserve the lead after the short. AND AC should have trailed by many more points in the long.

I don't agree about the short. Alissa's short, together with Davis and White's free skate, were the two performances that made this competition worth watching.

Poodlepal · Oct 23, 2011

Much as I love to root for Americans and defend their victories against naysayers, I have to agree that Alissa got very lucky here. I would not have had her win, if I were the judge. I wouldn't say that it was highway robbery, because the program wasn't bad, it just wasn't as clean and fluid as Carolina's.

The problem with the code of points is that the overall impression counts (or seems to count) for much less than it did under 6.0. If you add everything Alissa did, it may have added up to a lot, but overall she looked sluggish and shaky. Carolina didn't do the harder jumps (which didn't hurt her at all last year), but looked light and airy. But she didn't rack up the points on spins or lutzes something, so she lost by a hair.

Both of their programs were muddled by slow and sluggish music. If Carolina skates so fast and with such power, she needs some music to convey that. She doesn't look fast at all on television. And Alissa--is it me, or did she lose a lot of weight? She was always thin, but now she looks skeletal and unhealthy. I hope she is eating in a healthy manner.

jaylee · Oct 23, 2011

Funny (or not-so-funny, depending on your perspective) tweet on this issue from Lynn Rutherford:

http://twitter.com/#!/LynnRutherford/status/128257759895490560

One of my European friends came to the press room indignant. "How could Czisny beat Kostner, when Czisny made mistakes?" Turnabout, anyone?

Serious Business · Oct 23, 2011

Mathman said:
I believe that we should think hard about that position. We like the judging system, but we usually think the wrong guy won.

Can't speak for others, but I think I've very often been the one to defend the contentious result of a skating competition. So in some ways, I am a CoP booster. However, in this case, as per the CoP rules themselves, Kostner should've won based on PCS criteria.

And really, that's a positive for the overall effectiveness of the CoP. Under 6.0, a contentious competition result may have fans clamoring over various nuances and intangibles, but nobody can really say anything definitive unless the judges explain their ranking (which they rarely do). In the CoP, if a result is considered wonky by some people, we can all go directly to the protocols, refer to the rulebooks, and see for ourselves whether the people crying foul are right to do so.

In this case, I was all prepared to go to the protocols and defend Alissa's win, but upon actually studying it, I changed my mind. Under a less codified system, I'd have remained in ignorance.

ManyCairns · Oct 23, 2011

I absolutely prefer a combined total of the two programs over any sort of factored placement or assignment of points based on position in SP or whatever -- total combined score works for me completely -- don't care if you were 5th in the short or whatever. As someone else already noted, in prior systems it didn't matter if you won by a lot or barely squeaked it out, your superiority was erased by just awarding ranks or factors for placements. I really really like a combined total score wins it all!

Hmm, interesting comments about Caro's jumps. She can put some height and distance in, but so often she has to break at the waist and swoop her upper body down to "catch" her balance on the landing -- I'm probably not describing it well but so often she looks like she's just barely catching herself from two-footing or falling that I actually don't generally find her jumps the best part of her performances. I like her programs and the way they are structured and the way she executes the choreography, I like her footwork sequences, and I love her speed and her overall look of command on the ice, but I actually think she bobbles a lot on her jumps, in the sense I described. Not in a way that will get deductions in the current system, but just having a "I just barely pulled that off" look a lot of times.

Still, like I said about the SP, I'm really liking what the ladies put out there at SA! Yay!

LeCygne · Oct 23, 2011

I think Carolina's jump content hurt her. She got great GOE's for nearly everything she did, but she had a base value of 49.02 while Alissa had a base value of 49.03 WITH two downgrades, an underrotation, and an edge call. That's what you get for doing a flip and a loop while your competitor attempted two lutzes, two loops, and a flip. Carolina still had higher TES because of those GOE's, but Alissa won slightly on PCS. Not enough to win the FS though, which made sense. Combined with the SP scores, it's not a surpring result when you think about it.

skfan · Oct 23, 2011

Mathman said:
I don't agree about the short. Alissa's short, together with Davis and White's free skate, were the two performances that made this competition worth watching.

ymmv. to me AC's jumps in the short were just as skittish as kostner, she lacked the speed, the spark, the range of expression of kostner. you can say well, that's alissa, the soft lyrical style, but to me she's too stiff to be a successful soft, and people celebrate her not falling as if that in itself equals greatness. i thought her jumps were very borderline. VERY. where's the reward for trying a triple-triple when it doesn't suit your agenda?

i think you fell for the beautiful smile bonus--while i on the other hand found her grin too plastic to be charming.

anyway, kostner's long is what makes this competition worth watching for me. worth enduring all the years of galling judging, to watch a piece of interesting music suitably cut, a skater bring some life to interesting choreography.

cissny's long was completely devoid of life, so i can't accept that her program wasn't bad. just because she didn't splat every single jump afterwards and was still a fighter doesn't mean she had any expression left for the music or the crowd. if that was a baseball game it ought to have been called, by some mercy rule. she looked like merely slogging through the rest of it was going to put her in tears.

skatinginbc · Oct 23, 2011

Mrs. P said:
And Alissa beat Carolina in PCS by about a point.

I was told that data shows PCSs get affected by TES. If Alissa's PCS is already higher than Carolina's now, wait and see even higher PCS margin when she does not have those jumping errors.

jaylee · Oct 23, 2011

skatinginbc said:
I was told that data shows PCSs get affected by TES. If Alissa's PCS is already higher than Carolina's now, wait and see even higher PCS margin when she does not have those jumping errors.

Well, there's also the home field advantage to consider. Alissa had it (and the crowd behind her) this time, she won't have it next time.

LADIES LONG PROGRAM Thread

JeffyJosephNCA

ImaginaryPogue

jenaj

emma

Mathman

Violet Bliss

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

bekalc

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

burntBREAD

skfan

Mathman

Poodlepal

jaylee

Serious Business

ManyCairns

LeCygne

skfan

skatinginbc

jaylee

Similar threads

Connect with us