How many winners did you agree with?

ImaginaryPogue · Oct 23, 2011

I figured it would be worthwhile to toss this question out there. Mathman posits that it's odd that those who like COP still don't like the winners (usually). So lets figure it out....

a) Do you prefer COP to 6.0 (under any guise)

b) Based on the two skates, how many winners do you agree with?

c) Of those you disagree with, do you feel the result was fair anyway, just not your preference on the day?

ImaginaryPogue · Oct 23, 2011

And my answers....

a) A thousand times yes. More interesting programs, more interesting skaters, more interesting overall. Like Picasso or Serault vs a Monet, in my mind.

b) I agree with three of the four winners - Davis/White, Savchenko/Szolkowy, and Brezina.

c) I think if these exact same skates were held off home ice, the results would've been reversed for gold and silver. Not sure about bronze. So I guess, if I was honest, I'd say not fair.

CassAgain · Oct 23, 2011

1. I vastly prefer the COP.

2. I agree with all four winners although I would have been okay with it if the judges had gone with KVDP, the Zhangs and Kostner.

3. I think that Koster might have won elsewhere, and the Zhangs might have won in China.

Violet Bliss · Oct 23, 2011

^^^ The one result you disagree with is a virtual tie, not a great blatant injustice.

eta. This is a response to Pogue but somewhat applicable to the intervening post anyway.

bekalc · Oct 23, 2011

SkateFiguring said:
^^^ The one result you disagree with is a virtual tie, not a great blatant injustice.

eta. This is a response to Pogue but somewhat applicable to the intervening post anyway.

I think one could argue for the virtual tie if Kostner had won the tech mark/PCS mark like she should have. But the judges giving the nod to Alissa on PCS tonight was blatently wrong.

museksk8r · Oct 23, 2011

Men: Agree, Brezina was the rightful winner! I could not have stomached Van Der Perren winning.
Ladies: I preferred Kostner and would have given it to her if I were a judge, but I am fine with Czisny winning!
Pairs: Yes, S/S were head and shoulders above everyone else!
Dance: Yes, D/W were head and shoulders above everyone else!

So, the only discipline I didn't agree with was the ladies. Still, I respect how hard Alissa has worked to get to the improved and more confident state that she is now at. She attempted more difficulty technically than Kostner, even though her performance of her program was not at Carolina's level. Alissa did not wilt or cave in when she had a few errors in the LP. Both of these ladies are world class and well-balanced skaters, so it wasn't a contest of the athlete vs. the artist or an elite skater vs. a less than elite skater. Both are pretty much at the same level, though I prefer Kostner. I can understand and live with the result! It helps that I'm a fan of both of these skaters!

I sometimes had problems with 6.0 judging, just like I sometimes have problems with COP judging. Nothing new! I think politics still very much comes into play in judging. Too many times, TES and skate order factor too much into the PCS judging, which at times can be troubling and frustrating.

evangeline · Oct 23, 2011

a) Do you prefer COP to 6.0 (under any guise)
No.

b) Based on the two skates, how many winners do you agree with?
Three. I agreed with S/S, Brezina, and D/W.

c) Of those you disagree with, do you feel the result was fair anyway, just not your preference on the day?
I'm not a particular fan of either Carolina or Alissa, and I don't think the result was fair. It's quite obvious Alissa had a hometown boost...to be honest, I don't even think the result should've been as close as it turned out to be.

Tonichelle · Oct 23, 2011

1. COP
2&3. I have no problem with any of the winners, but wouldn't have been upset if the mens and ladies gold and silver were reversed either. It could've gone either way.

emma · Oct 23, 2011

CassAgain said:
1. I vastly prefer the COP.

2. I agree with all four winners although I would have been okay with it if the judges had gone with KVDP, the Zhangs and Kostner.

3. I think that Koster might have won elsewhere, and the Zhangs might have won in China.

I'm not sure if I vastly prefer COP...I know there are times I do, and other times I long for 6.0. I know that I still view CoP through 6.0 at times; leading to me misinterpreting many things. But, I never understood or liked dance until CoP and I really love it now....and I used to love pairs and feel blah about it now....I think the men's has been totally amazing most of the time, although at times, they have "messed up" (speaking to how hard CoP might be for them and thus, why i probably should question it), but what they have combined in so many men is amazing; and that someone likd KVDP dould do as well as he did yesterday or Plushenko at the 2010's makes me not worry too too too much about them and CoP.

so, about #1, I don't know. But I totally agree with your 2 and 3.

Violet Bliss · Oct 23, 2011

The difference between the two systems is that now we can pin point and argue about what we disagre on and do it in a quantitative way.

museksk8r · Oct 23, 2011

SkateFiguring said:
The difference between the two systems is that now we can pin point and argue about what we disagre on and do it in a quantitative way.

Ha, so true! Now we get to ***** WITH NUMBERS!

Mrs. P · Oct 23, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
I figured it would be worthwhile to toss this question out there. Mathman posits that it's odd that those who like COP still don't like the winners (usually). So lets figure it out....

a) Do you prefer COP to 6.0 (under any guise)

b) Based on the two skates, how many winners do you agree with?

c) Of those you disagree with, do you feel the result was fair anyway, just not your preference on the day?

A. COP by far. As SkateFiguring notes, it's easier to analyze the results. Also you have a better idea of how to win.

B. I am okay with all four.

C. I would have been fine if Carolina won; I think she did a great FS. That said, I guess I don't feel as others do that this was a highway robbery. Alissa having high PCS scores is not a new concept. But THAT said, I could see the argument that Carolina should have received higher PCS.
I don't think I would have changed the other winners.

Violet Bliss · Oct 23, 2011

museksk8r said:
Ha, so true! Now we get to ***** WITH NUMBERS!

Exactly. Empowered by numbers, now we can sound smart and logical instead of emotional and irrational just insisting on our own infallible judgments. We now have arsenals to back up our infallible judgments.

Numbers => IQ. COP :rock:

Mathman · Oct 23, 2011

(a) About the same.

(b) I agree with Davis and White. I wasn't thrilled by any of the pairs. Someone had to win, so I am OK with S&S

I wanted VanderPerren to win the men's and I thought Kostner should have won ladies. I like it better when the winner hits a home run in the ninth, rather than sneaking in the back door.

(c) I did not think anyone was scored unfairly. It's is a judged sport.

SkateFiguring said:
Empowered by numbers, now we can sound smart and logical instead of emotional and irrational just insisting on our own infallible judgments.

I think that is the crux of the matter. Figure skating is an emotional and irrational sport. Attaching numbers to it makes it less enchanting, IMHO.

Serious Business · Oct 23, 2011

a) I vastly prefer the overall structure and premise of the CoP, though I still think many aspects could be improved to make things fairer and more transparent.

b) I disagree with Alissa's win.

c) I prefer Aliisa's skating, and I liked this particular performance more than I liked Kostner's. But as per CoP rules, Kostner should've won. So the result was my preference, but I find it unfair. :laugh:

Violet Bliss · Oct 23, 2011

Mathman said:
I think that is the crux of the matter. Figure skating is an emotional and irrational sport. Attaching numbers to it makes it less enchanting, IMHO.

But I think skating is both emotional and rational and I have numbers and data to back the statement up. But I'm also smart enough not to argue numbers with Mathman.

CARA · Oct 23, 2011

A. I also prefer COP.

As you already know, COP was developed largely against "cheating" and "bribery" among judges - particularly between French and Russian judges. Those cheatings really demoralize skaters as well as disillusion fans.

COP is not perfect, and human nature the way it is, determined cheaters always find ways to cheat; however, COP is more objective and analizable and therefore minimize opportunities for cheating.

B. I definitely agree with three - Dance, Men, & Pairs.

C. I don't necessarily disagree with Alisa's gold, and here's the nice thing about COP - it's so much easier to provide the reasons. Caro skated clean but her jump layout had lower base values; her spins had lower levels, etc. Alisa's wobbly landings/fall received appropriate deduction and lower/nagative Grade of executions. Alisa won SP and Caro won FD, but Alisa squeaked by by .12 points. I can live with that result.

In fact, it was such a close call that I can live with Caro winning over Alisa by .12

These athletes pour their heart and soul, and hard work into the sports they love. To me, any system that promotes less opportunity for cheating wins by wide margin. If creativity is sacrificed as a result, that is an acceptable liability to me. Although I strongly disagree with the notion that COP stifles creativity. It's true that all the requirements may seem restricting. But the stricture forces you to be more imaginative, and hence creative. You just have to be diligent.

Serious Business · Oct 23, 2011

Mathman said:
Figure skating is an emotional and irrational sport. Attaching numbers to it makes it less enchanting, IMHO.

As with all sporting competitions, numbers matter no matter how the rules are written. Because ultimately, it all comes down to 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Unless the competition aspect is removed, very important numbers will be attached to skaters no matter the judging system.

The emotional and subjective elements of ranking figure skaters are maintained under the CoP. It's just spelled out and analyzed and explained. Things from GOEs to (of course) the PCS depend on subjective judgment (Did that jump fit the music? Did the skater reach the audience emotionally?). Assigning numbers to smaller pieces of subjective judgment doesn't make them less subjective, it just makes an overall ranking easier to break down and understand.

ImaginaryPogue · Oct 23, 2011

Exactly. Obfuscating the rules doesn't make the sport any more enchanting.

fscric · Oct 23, 2011

CARA said:
Although I strongly disagree with the notion that COP stifles creativity.

I do think that was the case when CoP was first implemented, but not any more.

How many winners did you agree with?

ImaginaryPogue

ImaginaryPogue

CassAgain

Violet Bliss

bekalc

museksk8r

evangeline

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

emma

Violet Bliss

museksk8r

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Violet Bliss

Mathman

Serious Business

Violet Bliss

CARA

Serious Business

ImaginaryPogue

fscric

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