How can Kozuka compete with Chan On PCS? | Page 10 | Golden Skate

How can Kozuka compete with Chan On PCS?

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Well, there are exceptions especially when the choreographer also happens to be the coach of the said skater, it happens. Also, when a skater significantly alters his/her program content as is often the case towards the end of the season due to a number of reasons such as injury / technical upgrade or downgrade, they often go back to their choreographer to "touch up" their programs. It is not unheard of that some choreographer like Nichol would demand that a skater first demonstrates certain technical ability (usually the proof of being able to include certain jumps) before she would agree to alter or adapt the choreography accordingly. While what you said is true most of the time, when skaters decide to add big jumps that require longer than normal set up times such as Triple Axel for ladies and Quads for men - the alteration of jump layout cannot be done in isolation with respect to the choreography. Since I skip BoP's posts, if he did claim that jumping layouts can be easily changed for the purpose of increasing PCS - that's nonsensical. Changing jumping layout may impact CH if the previous layout presents some noticeable obstacle to maximizing ice coverage (i.e. jumps doing successively near or around same little corner with little to no variation) or if the layout bunches jumps all together with nothing in between (see Ksenia Makarova's 2010 World FS as a prime example of such offense). Changing the order of execution of the jumps themselves is a non-factor on its own.

Excellent post wallylutz. Yes, coach/choreographer does change the dynamic. And a small correction: BOP was changing jump layouts to increase base value, not PCS, and to pick up the post 2:30 bonus. He was also suggesting extending spins and holding landings longer for effect, and when I questioned where he was going to get the extra time to do this, he insulted me. As for the order of execution of the jumps, there are multiple considerations involved.

Other moments in BOP's posts which made me chuckle: Choreography doesn't change from the start of the season to the end. And choreographers would be flattered that their work inspired him to make changes. Riiiiight.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Indeed. It is a common expression in VT.

Certainly in ice dance, the choreo changes throughout the season in order to squeeze a level here and there. It's one of the joys of watching skating for me.


And in singles, skaters are continually dumbing down the choreo so that they can actually skate it without falling down.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
And in singles, skaters are continually dumbing down the choreo so that they can actually skate it without falling down.

I think those who do that is so they can focus on and set up their big money jumps without falling down. And if big money jumps get them higher PCS, well, it's killing two birds with one stone.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
"Vast personal experience and studyiing many aspects of the sport more than anyone else on the entire planet" - there is is. This is why I consider your choreographic flights of fancy to be a joke. How old are you? 22, 23? What training have you had? What have degrees do you hold? What titles have your programs won? What master did you train under? You're a kid who fancies himself an actor, director, writer, producer whoo has taken some skating lessons. You've never competed at even a junior level. You're a dillitente. And an arrogant one at that.

LOL, and this is where you've really gone off the deep end. Are you trying to play a game wherein you make as many wrong assumptions as you possibly can? You would definitely win some kind of award here. Starting from the beginning of your list, I'm 26 years old and I'm quite certain I've had far more training in this sport than you have. By all means, let me know if you've trained to the level where you are working on Triple Axels and subsequently had your competitive career ended in part due to substantial injury from said move. I hold a degree in film studies and have contributed as a writer to a very successful series, as well as having some producing and acting credits (I've never worked as a director or ever called myself that, though, not sure where you're pulling this one from).

I've studied ice skating perhaps even more extensively than film, have passed the technical specialist tests, and have seen quite a few of my submitted ideas successfully voted through by ISU. I've had lessons from many people over the years, a couple of whom may be considered among the best in the business, although such a thing is not a prerequisite for becoming closely attuned to the business..."what master did you train under"...really? What a pompous and insufferable mindset you have. Talent and knowledge are not restricted to the preordained or those who have been given titles.

My only concern is the amount of misinformation contained in his choreography posts. Regardless of what he thinks he knows about choreography or the process by which skating programs are created, there are some gaps in his knowledge big enough to fill the Grand Canyon. When I pointed out to him that Carolina was restricted on what jumps she could do because of her injuries. BOP would have none of it. I didn't know what I was talking about and she most assured had done these jumps in the past and could easily do them now.

The only misinformation here is what you're writing. You didn't know what you were talking about, as it was clear from your posts that you've never actually done Triple jumps in your life. You insisted it was impossible for Carolina Kostner do to a 2Lutz or 2Flip because of injury and I said it's essentially impossible for a skater to not be able to do a 2Lutz or 2Flip and still be able to do all of the other moves Kostner was performing. A few weeks later Kostner was doing 3Flips. Gee, yeah, you were SO right Dragonlady. There was some kind of mystical ailment plaguing Kostner that made it impossible for her to perform 2Lutz or 2Flip but then suddenly be able to do a 3Flip a few weeks later. If you had ever trained these moves as a skater then you'd know the things you were saying didn't make any sense.

All of this insistence and terrible misinformation on your part was due to your knee-jerk reaction of trying to prove me wrong no matter what, since you couldn't handle someone talking about how to potentially improve a program and can't fathom the notion of someone other than the skater's own coach or choreography having ideas that could help them.

Another example, is that choreographers do not choose the order or the location of the jumps in the program. The coach does. The choreographer works within the framework of the payout provided by the coach and the skater. Do you think it's an accident that every choreographer Plushenko has ever worked with has used essentially the same jump layout in every single program the man has ever skated? Or that Tarasova and Nichol just happen to put the triple axel in the same spot on the ice in all of Mao's programs. This is done to aid muscle memory. So BOP's insistence that jump layouts can easily be changed to improve points or for asthetic reasons isn't really valid either.

I'm quite aware of how certain jumps are placed in specific spots because of muscle memory and stamina issues, and how choreographers do not have the final say when it comes it deciding such placements. I've never said any jump layout can easily be changed either; practice is clearly going to be required. The amount of practice varies, though, and in the case of Kostner it was things she could have incorporated relatively easily. Again, all of my ideas in this regard are centered around the competitive framework and blossoming the skater's specific skillset.

BOP was changing jump layouts to increase base value, not PCS, and to pick up the post 2:30 bonus. He was also suggesting extending spins and holding landings longer for effect, and when I questioned where he was going to get the extra time to do this, he insulted me. As for the order of execution of the jumps, there are multiple considerations involved.

Other moments in BOP's posts which made me chuckle: Choreography doesn't change from the start of the season to the end.

No, actually, my ideas were to benefit all of the Base Value, GOE, and PCS. I never insulted you about your question either, unless you think that thorough explanation and description of how it would fit together and work better is insulting? Apparently anything that gives legitimacy to what I say is insulting to you, though. As for your last sentence, you completely misunderstood the context and meaning. It was not a literal statement.

Look, it's the same person who suggested Miki Ando's Gold at the 2011 World = judging favortism due to earthquakes in Japan and that Ando should be no better than 5th.

I never said Ando's 2011 Gold was due to the earthquakes in Japan (especially seeing as how she was being overscored before that took place), I only mentioned that such a thing could have created extra sympathy. I believe Ando deserved to place 4th at the 2011 Worlds based upon the skating at the event and I gave very specific and complete protocol breakdowns and analyses of the performances. You are the person who always agrees with the judging 100% of the time and provides little or no reasoning to support your viewpoints, instead just resorting to name-calling when others have given very valid criticisms.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Kurt Browning, consummate professional in various aspects of figure skating, says he only choreographs show programs as there are so many rules and considerations involved in the choreography of competition programs.

I've loved the CoP work he has done and wish he would do more.

Choreographing a great CoP program can indeed be a very daunting tasking, though. Very few people have the versatile skillset for understanding all of these following things at the same time: What needs to go into the program to maximize CoP advantages, what needs to go into the program to satisfy it being an objectively outstanding piece of figure skating, and how to tailor everything to the specific skater so that it is both technically and aesthetically the best for them. Even when you have the ability to cull all of those things together, it is often still a painstakingly difficult process to create something appropriately excellent.

Which is exactly why it's so maddening to see bad/mediocre/good-but-not-great programs often score too high. This is why objective and precise judging, including both the individual judges and the system itself, is so crucial - if bad programs are rewarded then bad programs are what will keep getting created and the sport/art of figure skating as a whole will suffer for it. The above description of the difficulty in creating great programs is also related to why I feel judging is often so poor, aside from political issues and scoring on reputation - most of these people do not seem to have the vast range of knowledge and comparative understanding needed to properly score competitions.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I've studied ice skating perhaps even more extensively than film, have passed the technical specialist tests, and have seen quite a few of my submitted ideas successfully voted through by ISU. I've had lessons from many people over the years, a couple of whom may be considered among the best in the business, although such a thing is not a prerequisite for becoming closely attuned to the business..."what master did you train under"...really? What a pompous and insufferable mindset you have. Talent and knowledge are not restricted to the preordained or those who have been given titles.

Well Blades, blunty stated I don't believe any of it. Before I started suggesting that you were not who you claimed to be, I checked data bases for writing, acting and music credits, as well as USFSA competition data bases. No acting credits, no writing credits, no competition results - nothing. I just rechecked and searched again. You're not listed anywhere. You have to have been an elite skater to train as a technical specialist so that claim isn't believable either. You can claim you flew to the moon with Neil Armstrong and you're dating Lady Gaga, but that won't make it true.

Last but not least, if you are who you claim to be, you'd be working as a choreographer and making money at it, not posting smack on skating message boards.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
So then, you are a creepy stalker who presumes to know more about my life than I do, has spent a large amount of time trying to research me, and thinks the internet holds the answers to everything. You're just a paragon of sanity, aren't ya!

You have to have been an elite skater to train as a technical specialist so that claim isn't believable either.

Your word choice of "elite" is misleading and you don't need to be a skater of any ranking; having a single feasible coaching credit works too. Or, really, just have the right connections...I know of several people who took the courses that don't coach and haven't achieved anything as a competitive skater.

Furthermore, having sat through numerous required courses, I can tell you that I have learned FAR more through personal experience and independent study than those crappy required courses.

Last but not least, if you are who you claim to be, you'd be working as a choreographer and making money at it, not posting smack on skating message boards.

I'm hardly posting smack although that seems to be your goal here, along with attempting to discontinue any kind of conversation which goes against what you want to hear. I am here to share my opinions, engage my mind, and read ice skating news.

As for working as a choreographer and making money, I've done some work and hope to do more in the future, but apparently you don't understand how it takes time to build a sufficient client base and the costs of living (and that I have many things in life I'm focused on). Barring an incredible stroke of luck, people don't just magically get high-profile careers overnight even if they have exceptional aptitude.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I didn't criticize the judges themselves for that, I specifically said I was talking about if the competition result was objectively fair or not. Also, most people realize that I understand CoP like the back of my hand and have heard my detailed breakdowns of why I believe certain CoP rules are bad. I therefore try not to endlessly repeat technical specifics every time the subject of an unfair rule rears its head. I of course know << = automatic -GOE under the current rules, and accidentally doing too many combinations or repeat jumps = 0 points for that entire jumping pass, and that rotating + falling on higher level jumps = tons of points. When I call something out as unfair it's assumed that I'm talking in an objective sense of how the rules should be. If I'm talking about the scores being bad because of poor judging within the scope of the exact rules (which I do actually talk about more frequently, believe it or not), I feel like the context of how I talk generally makes it understood.

Fair enough, but I will say that I personally sometimes can't tell if you mean "unfair application of the rules" vs "unfair rule accurately applied" (example, Joubert's triple flips at Worlds 2008, if you recall that discussion).
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
So then, you are a creepy stalker who presumes to know more about my life than I do, has spent a large amount of time trying to research me, and thinks the internet holds the answers to everything.

When you put your name, photograph, occupation(s), and what you ate for breakfast on the internet and link them to your forum profile it really doesn't take long to do the searches. The skater's data base is a quick and easy search, as are the entertainment industry bases. Lot's of people get tripped up on the internet these days. It's getting harder and harder for people to fake their resumes.

My good friend and neighbour was the assistant choreographer for the National Ballet of Canada, so yes, I've aware of how one becomes successful in the business. And it's not done by posting on internet discussions forums about how talented you are.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Goodness me. There is no such thing as freedom of street fight, nor should there be freedom of defamatory speech in public or before a forced audience. I hope those posts pertaining to personal attacks will be deleted by a moderator as soon as possible. They really scared me.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
When you put your name, photograph, occupation(s), and what you ate for breakfast on the internet and link them to your forum profile it really doesn't take long to do the searches.

The information you seek about me is not available through the internet via any means you have. You actually don't even know if the name you saw was an alias or not. Maybe you should focus more on trying to form substantive arguments instead of internet stalking and name-calling. If you disagree with something then provide reasoning to support your opinion. If you don't want to engage in analytical discussion and find yourself losing an argument as a result, then stop posting. Resorting to the derivative and derogatory methods you keep trying to employ will get you nowhere.

Also, feel free to post a video of yourself skating and include a verbal statement to me after your performance within the video so I know it's really you. I'll do the same and then we can see for certain who has the real expertise here. Until that time, I'm not going to waste any more effort on your ludicrousness.

I hope everyone had a very pleasant Halloween. :rock:
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
When you put your name, photograph, occupation(s), and what you ate for breakfast on the internet and link them to your forum profile it really doesn't take long to do the searches. The skater's data base is a quick and easy search, as are the entertainment industry bases. Lot's of people get tripped up on the internet these days. It's getting harder and harder for people to fake their resumes.
Try me. I have twitter account(s), facebook page(s), vkontakte page(s), etc., all under different names and none of them is mine. The "name" on my e-mail that I used to register on boards are alias too. Welcome to the Internet, your ladyship! Using alias makes me a troll? Fine! No problem. Better be the one than come out on boards as some insane stalker. Jeez, if you do the same stuff offline too......
 
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