How can Kozuka compete with Chan On PCS? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

How can Kozuka compete with Chan On PCS?

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
A little bit off-topic, so please bear with me:

It's my impression (and therefore open for debate) that non-native speakers are more likely to be perceived as trolls or show "trolling" behavior. Their comments are usually very short in simple sentences, often brusque and rude, due to limited English proficiency and time (it takes a lot of time for them to write a simple paragraph). And they feel that their important message, which is not well articulated or elaborated, is not being heard. So they repeat the same so many times that they become rather annoying.

In the Golden Skate Guidelines, trolling is defined as "deliberately posting derogatory and/or inflammatory posts in order to bait other users into responding", which requires a lot of burden of proof before we can call someone a "troll". It's probably not so hard to prove that someone should have known by now if their messages are inflammatory or not, given the responses they have received, but it's extremely hard to prove that their intention is "to bait other users into responding". I wish we could simply use the user-name or handle as proof (e.g., "let's chat" certainly implies "I want responses") but again that would be very unfair. Thank goodness, based on the Guidelines, it is not upon us to judge and therefore not upon us to label others. I guess we should all follow the guidelines: "Do Not Feed the Trolls". Report them directly to moderators instead.
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Chan does have the highest score and people will be trying to score like he did so he has to try to beat his old score and definitely keep trying to improve. He does need to fix his 3A because the 3A was the flaw in Moscow and his score would have been even higher if that jump had been cleaner.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Interesting that posters would would say that in 2008 and 2009 Evan was “building his reputation” which served him well in at Worlds in 2009 and in the 2010 Olympics.

In 2008 Evan went into 4CC as defending champion and finished 3rd. The only event in he won in the 2007/2008 season was Nationals and he pulled out of Worlds citing an injury due to boot problems. He had failed to build on a successful 2006/07 season and with Weir winning a bronze at Worlds, people said Evan was done.

The season was such a disappointment to him that he went to Tarasova to improve his presentation in the off-season and she choreographed his LP. That didn’t exactly go as expected. The program created was a flailing mess and Evan finished behind Ryan Bradley at Skate Canada and missed the GPF. In December he went to Lori Nichol to rework his LP and work on his upper body movement.

The time with Nichol was well spent. Although he finished 3rd at Nationals, he continued to improve throughout the rest of the season, finished a strong second to Patrick Chan at 4CC, where we noticed improved speed, flow, and better use of the upper body to express the music. And yes he won Worlds.

So while you comment that Evan was “building his reputation”, there is clear and compelling evidence that Evan was improving his speed, his flow, his use of his upper body, doing more transitions and just everything possible to overcome his injury problems with caused him to give up doing the quad at the time. That building skills, not reputation.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I recognize Kozuka's skating skills and the difficulty of his program. I only questioned if his program is indeed more difficult than Chan's as concluded. Kurt and Lori surely gushed over him and his skating, with Kurt pointing out the not so obvious but extremely difficult moves and Lori commenting that he made them look easy. However, they've always said that about Patrick too. Lori has lamented often that most people just don't see and appreciate what Patrick does because he makes them look too easy. I'm looking forward to hear their commentary about his new program too.

I've observed that by now Patrick has already made a big impact in the sport of skating, as his style can be seen emulated by many young skaters. His skating is admired by aspiring young skaters all over the world and I imagine he must be inspiring a generation of little ones. Though Kozuka's skating abilities are the closest to Patrick's at this point, skaters' skater both, I haven't heard or read mentions (in languages I know) of him as an inspiration and an idol, unlike Takahashi and Chan. Does this have the same basis as his somewhat lesser PCS and "reputation"? That he doesn't radiate the kind of energy like Dai and Patrick, the PCS kings? That he doesn't have his own distinct style?

eta. My last paragraph concerns skaters' perception and attitude as expressed in various interviews, not fans'. The skaters see with discerning eyes more like judges' than fans'.
 
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gopatrick

EnChanted
On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
I would put it this way: if Taka is a breeze that makes me smile, then Patrick is the storm that belows me away:love:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Somehow, this article once again shows Chan's attitude to his competitors:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskat...pf-skating-chan-legacy.html?cmp=twt-cbcsports

Go Patrick! That is the attitude that every champion should have. "I'm the world champion, you're not. Catch me if you can!"

Irina Rodnina (I have no idea who she is)

Hold on a minute! Forget those johnny-come-lately fellows, Kozuka, Chan and Lysacek. Irina Ridnina :rock: won ten consecutive world championships and three consectutive Olympic gold medals.

I would put it this way: if Taka is a breeze that makes me smile, then Patrick is the storm that belows me away:love:

Quite so. So now the question is, would I rather be left smiling or be blown away? ;) (Although I have to admit, Chan's Take Five short program makes me smile, too.)
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I say Chan's POTO blew me away but his mesmerizing Aranjuez carries me like waves of sea water.

His latest statements answer a few questions in this thread

2011 figure skating world champ draws comparisons to Canada's greats

1. He's full of respect and admiration for the elder skating stars. BTW, Chan and Kozuka are good friends going back for years. AFAS I can see, he and the main Japanese rivals are all friends as well (see the wonderful photo at post 170), likely more so than with most of the Canadian Mens skaters simply because the top skaters are with each other a lot and also Chan trains mostly in the US.

2. To put it concisely: Last year it was about TES. This year it's PCS Chan's focusing on. He is on a different but equally fast track. As I said, as he's challenging himself, it's "catch me if you can" for others. Is Kozuka on a faster track in his PCS?
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Poor Kozuka - can't get the PCS his skating warrants and doesn't even get to stay the focus of the one thread he has! Just to pay him the respect he deserves, here's the first time I saw him skate - 2008 Worlds, in what appeared to be a bowling shirt. Yes, I'm a bad skating fan for not having seen him earlier. Note that he is not just looking at his skates! Also, Morozov sighting in the beginning.

Interesting. Here is Chan's for comparison. Please note that the year on the title is wrong. It should be 2008.

http://dancejam.com/videos/1054614626-2009-worlds-patrick-chan-canada

Patrick's PCS was slightly higher than Kozuka's in spite of his stumble. At least there was one thing he did better than Kozuka: he hit the music more.
 
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skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Go Patrick! That is the attitude that every champion should have. "I'm the world champion, you're not. Catch me if you can!"

Yes, that's an attitude a champion should have, but not something a nice person would say in public (based on Confucius values, not World Wrestling Federation values). Because of your post, I read the article and found that he expressed it in a more humble, diplomatic way--thank goodness. You scared the heart out of my chest.:p:p
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I've observed that by now Patrick has already made a big impact in the sport of skating, as his style can be seen emulated by many young skaters. His skating is admired by aspiring young skaters all over the world and I imagine he must be inspiring a generation of little ones. Though Kozuka's skating abilities are the closest to Patrick's at this point, skaters' skater both, I haven't heard or read mentions (in languages I know) of him as an inspiration and an idol, unlike Takahashi and Chan. Does this have the same basis as his somewhat lesser PCS and "reputation"? That he doesn't radiate the kind of energy like Dai and Patrick, the PCS kings? That he doesn't have his own distinct style?

eta. My last paragraph concerns skaters' perception and attitude as expressed in various interviews, not fans'. The skaters see with discerning eyes more like judges' than fans'.
I think your perception may owe to several things. First, Patrick has been a high profile skater longer than Kozuka and as such has gotten more attention from everyone, fellow skaters included. There was a lot of hype around him from a very early point. Patrick worked first to get PCS recognition from the judges, while Kozuka chased the quad, which led to more mistakes in his programs and lower PCS - and when a skater is building his reputation, messy performances are the last thing he needs. In addition, Patrick became the Canadian number 1 when Jeff retired, which made him more visible and got him better marks, while the situation with the Japanese skaters was far less settled. And as you noted, there already was a Japanese skater that many did look up to and who had a very unique style (FWIW, I don't think Patrick has a distinct style; skating skills and transitions are not a style).

Second, Patrick is your favorite skater, and even if you don't necessarily seek out more positive materials about him - though being a fan, I am sure you do - you are more likely to notice positive mentions of him and to recall them. That's just classic cognitive processes. Now, you could ask me to list the skaters who have said they were inspired by Patrick, and I won't be able to remember as many - actually, the only one I recall is Yuzuru Hanyu, and that's because I like Yuzuru and remember he mentioned observing Patrick (and also that his absolute faves are Weir and Plushenko).

Third, I think neither of us really follows the Japanese media, and knows much about who the younger generation of Japanese skaters is trying to emulate? Takahiko seems like a very good role model to me.

Finally, I can think of one skater who came right out and said Kozuka should have scored higher in Moscow, and specifically mentioned skating skills compared to Patrick. So clearly there are people within the skating world who admire his abilities very much:

Performance of the night for me was Taka Kozuka, my one time pairs partner. We did a show number together once in Japan in which I did a lift with him and also a, kind of, throw triple Axel!! It was all preparation for this breathtaking performance. His Skating skills were on a par with Patrick Chan and so were all the jumps and spins. How the judges managed to give Patrick 9 points more on components I can not quite comprehend.

That is just a biased opinion as your favourite apparently did not win, LOL.
Jaana, all our opinions are biased, yours included. There is a large subjective component to skating evaluation and you know it. Personally, I agree with the suggestion that Evan was overscored on PCS no less than Plushenko. Also, that he was lucky not to get called out on his awful 3A technique. Evan had a world champion bonus and a strong political push from his federation; I suspect that if Joubert had landed the 2A at 2009 Worlds and won, Plushenko would now be a 2-time OGM.

But the 2010 Men's event was so awful, I just pretend it never was, and think of Yu-Na and V/M instead.
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I am just glad that in the vomitous era of a quadless Olympic champion Chan is just pushing all these boundries. It's really sick hearing all these people talking about Lysacek like he is a standard to be reached and not laughed at. A ridiculous version of COP that made the quad worthless has been trashed and a new one is in place and Chan is pushing it actually creating new standards and one that might keep the worthless triple program that won the 2010 Olympics out of mens minds when they are competing against Chan! Hopefully!!
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
So while you comment that Evan was “building his reputation”, there is clear and compelling evidence that Evan was improving his speed, his flow, his use of his upper body, doing more transitions and just everything possible to overcome his injury problems with caused him to give up doing the quad at the time. That building skills, not reputation.

It's not so much building skills as it is playing the system. Evan Lysacek of 2010 did not have significantly better speed or body movement or transitions or edging over the Evan Lysacek of 2006, he simply had programs built around gaining points with what he could do sans a Quad and a more mature look as a result of naturally aging and also gaining more confidence as a competitor. In terms of performance, choreography, and interpretation the Evan Lysacek of 2006 was better if you ask me.

The Evan Lysacek of 2010 definitely benefited from reputation, after gaining the aura of 'World Champion' when everything came together so luckily for him to win that title. He never would have defeated Plushenko without that momentum.

Going back to the thread title, Kozuka basically needs more momentum. Buttercup, I agree with everything you just said. Kozuka could have dominated the entire 2008-2009 season if he went for a more CoP-friendly layout like Patrick Chan did that season. Kozuka had the most difficult program of that entire season: Quad, 3Axel+3Toe combination, 3Axel at the VERY END of the program, transitions going into every other jump of the program...and unfortunately those Quad and 3Axel passes only hindered his score because of how they made him less consistent. If he had instead structured his program like Patrick Chan, with an easier 3Axel-2Toe combination and the second 3Axel right at the halfway point of the program and a 2Axel instead of a 4Toe, then he probably would have been able to skate it cleanly all season long and he never would have been beaten the entire season.

Because of how subtle his skating tends to be and because of inconsistencies from attempting such difficult programs and because of not being Japan's clear #1, the judges have often underscored him. If he had dominated everyone else technically in that 2008-2009 season, then the judges would have given him higher PCS. Judges are very follow-the-leader and who-has-the-most-street-cred when it comes to scoring competitions. If everyone around them is saying "oh, this person is the best skater" then that's generally how the competition will be scored. There are not enough judges who have shown the ability to think for themselves and use critical judgement that is unswayed by peer pressure.

I am personally glad Kozuka did not take the follow-the-numbers route from 2008-2010, however, and instead tried to go down a more challenging and rewarding (to those who care about such details and ideas) choreographic path. He was far more interesting to me during the pre-Olympic and Olympic seasons than he was last season, when he achieved his biggest competitive success, in part because of how his choreography last season became less about creating something meaningful and more about structuring elements to gain CoP points.

If Kozuka wants to get the PCS of Patrick Chan, he needs to skate perfectly and have Patrick mess up considerably. If he beats Patrick Chan multiple times and continues to deliver, then the judges will start scoring his PCS at the same level (or higher) because of the 'Champion Aura' that automatically gives higher scores to any skater who has been having strong competition results recently. Kozuka certainly has the skating skills and the transitions and the musicality and the technical goods. His style is not the type that is going to be more favored if he and Patrick skate equally well and are on equal ground in terms of reputation, however. People tend to focus more on the superficial, such as the notion that skaters who look down at the ice deserve lower PCS. It doesn't matter how brilliantly that kind of introspective demeanor reflects the music, some people will always just see it as a weakness.
 
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skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
People tend to focus more on the superficial, such as the notion that skaters who look down at the ice deserve lower PCS. It doesn't matter how brilliantly that kind of introspective demeanor reflects the music, some people will always just see it as a weakness.

I don't always see it as a weakness. I might see it as a plus as a matter of fact as long as it conveys meanings and goes with the music. But Kozuka's is more of a meaningless bad habit to my layman's eye. I wouldn't have mentioned his eye if he skates with introspective demeanor like Jeffrey Buttle did.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
I don't think Patrick has a distinct style; skating skills and transitions are not a style.
Good point. Patrick is getting there although not quite there yet. I see a style of his own emerging in his Take Five and the exhibition program where he holds a mop.
Takahiko seems like a very good role model to me.
I have no doubt about it. The way he presents himself simply admirable. So humble, so kind, so gentle, so genuine.... I am a fan of Kozuka the person, and a fan of Chan's skating.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Buttercup most of the points in your response to me make sense but I was already quite aware of them, which is why I specify what I hear and read are in languages I know, which don't include Japanese, not fully anyway. But I do have a little more diverse sources of opinions than an average skating fan.

Though many Chinese fans are not keen on Chan due to earlier reputation sabotage, the young Chinese skaters surely look up to him even though Kozuka is much more popular in China. I've not read of Kozuka as a skating role model in Chinese. The French commentators, OTOH, are the biggest gushers of Chan, even if Joubert fans hate him. Chan has already been declared the best in skating history there. Skating pratically doesn't exist in another language I know but no skater's view in that language would make any press anyway.

Secondly, I don't seek bad press on Kozuka or interpret info negatively as I've been a big fan of Kozuka. My enthusiasm is not so obvious as 1) I'm unable to get or bring much information on him due to the language barrier and 2) I don't need to defend him like I do Chan. Kozuka is doublessly quite inspiring to young Japanese skaters, but I am certain not as much as Takahashi. So, as far as his reputation is concerned, I think it's more among fans than judges who already rate him as #1 Japanese skater but somehow his status/reputation cannot match Takahashi's in people's hearts. Maybe the same intengible factor has some effect on the judges too, reflecting in his PCS. i.e. he himself does not project a status of being number 1, in Japan or the World, the kind of energy lesser skaters (footwork and transition wise, for PCS) like Joubert and Plushenko project. Maybe that's what is meant by the commend of the ice? Kozuka is shy and humble, and he is deferential to his elders, Takahashi and Oda, per Japanese culture and the mindset likely is carried onto competition ice. He has also said to not like to perform though he loves skating. However, I think and hope this last year he's been inspired and encouraged much by his experiences. He's more expressive in show performances these days so that may happen for him on competition ice too.

Whether or not Kozuka can score PCS as high as Chan's, he is one of the world's best skaters but still has room to improve. I hope he challenges himself like his friend and rival Patrick and together they raise the bar so high there is no looking back.
 
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let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Yes, that's an attitude a champion should have, but not something a nice person would say in public (based on Confucius values, not World Wrestling Federation values).
+1.

Kozuka is a very nice person in public. Unfortunately, it seems it doesn't help him to get the PCS he deserves.
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Plushenko lost the gold himself in 2010 OG. Had he bothered to studied the COP a little he'd had the gold. He was simply too arrogant.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
It's not so much building skills as it is playing the system. Evan Lysacek of 2010 did not have significantly better speed or body movement or transitions or edging over the Evan Lysacek of 2006, he simply had programs built around gaining points with what he could do sans a Quad and a more mature look as a result of naturally aging and also gaining more confidence as a competitor. In terms of performance, choreography, and interpretation the Evan Lysacek of 2006 was better if you ask me.

I was at Skate Canada in 2008 and saw his performance there. I was also at 4CC and saw his performance there. There was a world of difference in speed, flow and command of the ice. There was also a difference in the use of his upper body. He wasn't flailing his arms any more, and he was more centered over his blades. How could you possibly discern improvements in his speed from your TV screen?

As for the Evan of 2006, he had few transitions, little in the way of choreography, and mainly stroked between his elements. You're correct that by 2010 he had learned to use the system, and that meant upgrading his footwork and his spins, all of which were Level 3's in 2006. By 2010, Evan has raised the bar on his spins and footwork even though the ISU had steadily increased the requirements to achieve the top levels. Only his straight line step sequence was a Level 3, the rest of his spins and footwork in the LP were all level 4's.

There was also an improvement in his PCS scores - low 7's in 2006, mid 8's in 2010, but I note that at the Skate Canada in 2008, Evan was still scoring in the low 7's in PCS. By 4CC, his PCS scores had risen to mid to upper 7's, and by Worlds, he had achieved upper 7's and low 8's. All of which supports my contention that Evan made significant improvements to his skating over the course of the 2008/2009 season. Those improvements continued throughout the 2009/2010 season although not as dramatically as that stretch between Skate Canada 2008 and Worlds 2009.

I attended Skate Canada 2008 and 4CC 2009 with the same group friends and in Vancouver, we were all noting how much Evan had improved his speed and flow since Skate Canada. He looked like a different skater and his marks reflected that.

But by all means, continue to believe that it was all due to reputation and milking the system.
 
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