Pairs Short Programs

pangtongfan said:

Then get ready for a switch to biathlon or ski jumping. The Germans nearly lost to the Zhangs at Skate America, and that is with the Zhangs making mistakes and the Germans only making a couple. The Zhangs arent a top 3 pair team anymore. Volosozhar & Trankov would have slaughtered them at Skate America, and while later in the year it might be closer, V&T are taking over as the Worlds top pair team and likely will dominate from now until Sochi.

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Whoa! Ya think?!! Look, I like V/T, but if they are going to dominate the field from now until Sochi, you must know something that I don't. Get real. S/S, while definitely having to earn their marks as they are not judges' favorites, have still pushed the pairs discipline forward with their difficulty, innovative moves and choreo, their range, and their eagerness to take risks, challenge themselves and explore something different every season. All the teams look to S/S and incorporate a lot of what S/S do. If you can't see that, oh well.

For sure S/S were judged harshly for trying a high-risk move at SA. That's why I say they have to earn every point, unlike some of the Russian pairs, who get points just for being Russian. Still, I like V/T of all the Russians. Too bad, just because the Olympics will be in Sochi, S/S will have to pull some kind of magic superhuman effort out of the hat to beat V/T, and we know that already, even two years ahead of Sochi. In that respect, higher marks in the GP this season for V/T vs what S/S had (of course with some mistakes in both programs for S/S), is not surprising at all.

ETA: I agree with those who don't particularly care for V/T sp. Yes, they skated it well, but I don't like the music. Also, clearly, V/T are trying to copy S/S style with this program. S/S do S/S style better, and S/S are always one-step ahead with innovation and trying something different, regardless of judges' scoring. So what the judges at SC fairly much over-scored V/T for their performance. Unsurprising. Nevertheless, I enjoy watching V/T (aside from this sp). I think V/T's fp better suits their on-ice identity, but so much for what I think. Judges will always do what they do. That's figure skating.

Art&Sport said:

Whoa! Ya think?!! Look, I like V/T, but if they are going to dominate the field from now until Sochi, you must know something that I don't. Get real. S/S, while definitely having to earn their marks as they are not judges' favorites, have still pushed the pairs discipline forward with their difficulty, innovative moves and choreo, their range, and their eagerness to take risks, challenge themselves and explore something different every season. All the teams look to S/S and incorporate a lot of what S/S do. If you can't see that, oh well.

For sure S/S were judged harshly for trying a high-risk move at SA. That's why I say they have to earn every point, unlike some of the Russian pairs, who get points just for being Russian. Still, I like V/T of all the Russians. Too bad, just because the Olympics will be in Sochi, S/S will have to pull some kind of magic superhuman effort out of the hat to beat V/T, and we know that already, even two years ahead of Sochi. In that respect, higher marks in the GP this season for V/T vs what S/S had (of course with some mistakes in both programs for S/S), is not surprising at all.

ETA: I agree with those who don't particularly care for V/T sp. Yes, they skated it well, but I don't like the music. Also, clearly, V/T are trying to copy S/S style with this program. S/S do S/S style better, and S/S are always one-step ahead with innovation and trying something different, regardless of judges' scoring. So what the judges at SC fairly much over-scored V/T for their performance. Unsurprising. Nevertheless, I enjoy watching V/T (aside from this sp). I think V/T's fp better suits their on-ice identity, but so much for what I think. Judges will always do what they do. That's figure skating.

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Uh I don't think the Russian pairs are all getting huge scores at least not some of the younger ones. The Russian pair at Junior worlds last year and T/T both deserved higher PCS than Sui/Han (lets be real). I/M deserved bronze at GPF. I think in general some of the other Russian teams are getting underscored.

I love S/S and their willingness to take risks, but I do think you need to give V/T some time. They are still a fairly new team. Glad they are talking about getting rid of that short, its terrible.

Thanks for the heads-up bekalc, that V/T may be getting rid of that sp. Ugh (gagging sound). I don't have any problem giving V/T some time -- they have all the time in the World and the confidence knowing that the next Olympics will be in Sochi. I was responding to pangtongfan's crystal ball gazing. V/T "slaughtering" S/S ... well I guess with a little help from the judges and S/S making any kind of mistake.

BTW, I haven't been following the Junior pairs. If you think the Russian teams are being underscored, then you must feel they deserve points for being Russian (which means b/c of the Russian ballet tradition, a lot of the Russian teams have good line and unison, which seems to make judges happy). Line and unison and being Russian alone does not make a pairs team mature and complete. It does not make a pairs team great either. As far as V/T, they are a cut above the other Russian teams, and I'm happy for them that they found each other. Not so happy if they will be over-scored in competition with S/S. I love S/S, but also enjoy V/T and would prefer to see good competition, not favoritism.

Art&Sport said:

Thanks for the heads-up bekalc, that V/T may be getting rid of that sp. Ugh (gagging sound). I don't have any problem giving V/T some time -- they have all the time in the World and the confidence knowing that the next Olympics will be in Sochi. I was responding to pangtongfan's crystal ball gazing. V/T "slaughtering" S/S ... well I guess with a little help from the judges and S/S making any kind of mistake.

BTW, I haven't been following the Junior pairs. If you think the Russian teams are being underscored, then you must feel they deserve points for being Russian (which means b/c of the Russian ballet tradition, a lot of the Russian teams have good line and unison, which seems to make judges happy). Line and unison and being Russian alone does not mean you are a mature, complete pairs team. It does not make you great either.

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This is PAIRs skating line and unision are part of being a great pair absolutely. It matters. And well I also think skating skills matter too. Sui/Han's PCS here, their PCS last year were a joke. They have poor skating skills, not good unison etc. I'm sorry but being able to do a quad throw and lands some triples does not make you a good pairs skater either. Both the young Russian team and Japan's T/T were absolutely robbed on PCS vs Sui/Han at Junior Worlds last year. It was highway robbery. I/M should have had bronze at the GPF too. If the judging had been fair and not based on politics.

The Russians have so many good teams that some of their up and coming teams like I/M don't get the PCS they would get if they were skating for another country, because they don't get political support. (I don't even think this one can really be argued). Unless you want to argue that I/M's placement at Cup of China truly was fair.

This being said I think I/M need another short program.

I'm sorry but I don't see how one can argue that skating as "two as one" shouldnt' be vastly important in pairs skating. . Ballet is a good thing to have. Guess what you can take ballet as a basic/core thing and then venture to other forms of dance. But seriously all of these pairs skaters especially the women should take it. To help improve positions etc.
Tatiana does have better positions in the lift than Aliona (although Aliona is not Denny like horrible so its not that big of a deal). Right now S/S deserve to win based on their better choregraphy/innovative transitions.

But in general I think the Russians "have" have done pairs better than everyone else. I actually think V/T have work to do to be up there with the greats in Russian pairs skating, although they can get there.

I am being convinced though that S/S are an all time great team. While their unison in spins are not great, everything else is amazing. I love them for taking modern dance look to pairs skating and making it look beautiful. And I think they will be more appreciated years from now then they are today...

But most of these teams out there aren't S/S.

As I said, I don't follow the younger pairs teams. I'm not that interested in Sui/Han either, and I haven't said anything about them. Judging is always generally unfair and based on politics. Skaters are even more aware of that than we are. Don't care about I/M either. My eyes mostly re pairs are on S/S and V/T, and I'm interested to see what will happen at Nats re our pairs teams -- they still have little chance to be competitive internationally. I will be surprised if D/C place 6th at Worlds like Y/C. Some of the newer Canadian teams are ok, but I'm still upset how two poor performing Canadian pairs were placed over E/L at the 2010 Olympics when E/L skated great and the Canadians made mistakes. But that's figure skating.

No argument with you bekalc. Maybe someone else is an avid Russian pairs team watcher, and interested in all the younger up-and-coming pairs.

ETA: Oh no, bekalc. I'm not saying that line and unison are not important in pairs skating. I'm saying that just because many Russian teams tend to excel in that area does not mean that they excel in all aspects of pairs skating. To become great takes emotional connection with each other and with the audience, and finding a compelling style and identity on the ice. I have found a lot of Russian teams to be precise and technically lovely, but lacking in depth of emotion. Of course, not including G/G, B/S and some others. But definitely for me, T/T were somewhat detached emotionally, although they had gorgeous line and extension. I liked the early T/T when they first came on the scene with Tatiana's pixie haircut.

Art&Sport said:

As I said, I don't follow the younger pairs teams. I'm not that interested in Sui/Han either, and I haven't said anything about them. Judging is always generally unfair and based on politics. Skaters are even more aware of that than we are. Don't care about I/M either. My eyes mostly re pairs are on S/S and V/T, and I'm interested to see what will happen at Nats re our pairs teams -- they still have little chance to be competitive internationally. I will be surprised if D/C place 6th at Worlds like Y/C. Some of the newer Canadian teams are ok, but I'm still upset how two poor performing Canadian pairs were placed over E/L at the 2010 Olympics when E/L skated great and the Canadians made mistakes. But that's figure skating.

No argument with you bekalc. Maybe someone else is an avid Russian pairs team watcher, and interested in all the younger up-and-coming pairs.

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Well you were kind of saying being Russian will get you this, and I was kind of trying to point not always. Whenever there's a situation where a country is deep at something (and the Russians are getting deep in pairs again) Their teams in the lower part of the "hierarchy can be shortchanged."

I actually do agree about V/T and getting politiked big time. It will difficult to beat the Russians in Sochi. But I do think V/T will have to improve some too. A part of me kind of wonders if well if the judges kind of started scoring S/S lower in the Olympic year not only because of the whole Shen/Zhao legends thing but also with the concept of maybe then S/S won't retire because how many pair were watchable.

In general though it will be hard for me to root against S/S at the Olympics because they have been so great for so long. And the judges/skating feds are humans and I won't be surprised if S/S keeps at this level that they won't feel the same.

See my ETA in previous post, posted at the same time as yours above, bekalc.

bekalc said:

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I am being convinced though that S/S are an all time great team. While their unison in spins are not great, everything else is amazing. I love them for taking modern dance look to pairs skating and making it look beautiful. And I think they will be more appreciated years from now then they are today...

But most of these teams out there aren't S/S.

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ITA. Very true. I wish though that S/S will be appreciated more now and years from now.

Sui/Han really impress me with their potential. At times they seem like an Ice Dance team out there. I hope they become China's #1 team this season, because they are so much better than the Zhangs in many regards (it's really sad how blank and empty the female Zhang's skating is, because the male Zhang is great).

I agree with some others that it's ridiculous to say V/T will dominate S/S by Sochi. S/S had a horrible SP at Skate America and were still able to come back and win first place in the competition, even after a LP that wasn't perfect. While I think the two teams will be the main contenders, I don't think either will dominate.

In general I would suggest not to compare results (numbers) from different events too much. Many commented last week that scores were rather low in general, not only for S/S. This week we have already several comments about exaggerated marks. Might depend on the fact that it's the second, not the first event - but maybe it's just due to different judges.

Sui/Han are freaking adorable. I love their SP lol

MikiAndoFan#1 said:

Go Tatiana & Maxim!

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For a moment there, I was wondering why you were talking about Tatiana Totmianina and Maxim Marinin:think:, and then it finally clicked to my mind that Volosozhar/Trankov have the exact same first names!