Can Mirai Nagasu consistently put 2 clean programs together in the same competition?

^ I think the difference is that in the 6.0 era, yes there were many falls, but skaters that fell lost. At the 2002 Olympics Michelle fell on a triple flip. That was it. No gold medal.

Under the current system, falling down is just a minor loss of opportunity to earn more points.

Mathman said:

Under the current system, falling down is just a minor loss of opportunity to earn more points.

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One of the reasons, I think, is that the penalty of a fall is not properly reflected in the PCS (especially Performance/Execution), which is factored two times in the long. The current system treats falls as a separate Deduction category: A fall receives -1 no matter in the short or long. It means a fall in the long is half as consequential as one in the short in terms of effecting the placement of that portion of the competition. However, from the audience's esthetic point of view, a fall in the long is equally as disruptive as one in the short, not half.

skatinginbc said:

One of the reasons, I think, is that the penalty of a fall is not properly reflected in the PCS (especially Performance/Execution), which is factored two times in the long. The current system treats falls as a separate Deduction category: A fall receives -1 no matter in the short or long. It means a fall in the long is half as consequential as one in the short in terms of effecting the placement of that portion of the competition. However, from the audience's esthetic point of view, a fall in the long is equally as disruptive as one in the short, not half.

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This IMO really needs to be fixed. Its getting ridiculous.

Really? I think a fall in the short is more disruptive, personally. I think falls in general should be penalized more, though.

Mathman said:

^ I think the difference is that in the 6.0 era, yes there were many falls, but skaters that fell lost. At the 2002 Olympics Michelle fell on a triple flip. That was it. No gold medal.

Under the current system, falling down is just a minor loss of opportunity to earn more points.

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This is definitely a drawback of the current system IMO. Gymnastics did a very similar thing when they changed their code and now a lot of the competitors are doing a lot of moves they haven't really mastered in order to maximize points. In the early 90s a slight wobble could cost you a championship in that sport and now you can fall and still have a shot at winning; it's the same in figure skating. I understand rewarding difficulty, but not falling is also very difficult to do and should be somehow rewarded.

drivingmissdaisy said:

I know people have high expectations for Mirai, but am I the only one who thinks Mirai's strong 4th place finish at the Olympics was an aberration rather than a reflection of her true level? (In other words, the Olympics were her Paul Wylie moment).

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But Mirai's also shown brilliance at US Nationals in 2010, the Worlds 2010 SP, Four Continents 2011 LP.....she definitely has the goods and it looks like the judges are ready to reward her for it when she skates well (e.g. 2010 Worlds SP).

Of the CoP-era ladies skaters, Miki Ando has been the most consistent in having clean back-to-back SP/LP's, yes?

The US women are as good as anyone. maybe Japan will dominate a long time due to tiny little skaters who can whip around and turn in the air easier, men and women, but the USA skaters don't get the credit they deserve. It isn't just about medals. Flatt is doing something no Japanese skater is doing, elite skting and stanford. She was fabulous in the Olympics and it is very hard if not impossible to do the academics etc she does and compete. Lets remember Michelle got tutors at age 13 and lived at the ice rink until age 25. CoP does not allow skaters to breathe, these busy, frantic programs remind me of ice dancing in the 90's at its most awful. Now a single skate must be in perpetual, meaningless motion. We want ice dancers who can do triple jumps. Patrick Chan is so rare it's not even funny. I want men's skating to concentrate on good basics and spins and elements but I miss seeing programs from Men who looked and skated like Kulik, Stojko, Yagudin, Plushenko, and to go back, Boitano, Orser, Wylie. These jampacked programs are too busy and then we see same spins, same elements and of course more falls. jumps need time to set up to be done properly. CoP will be changed and tweaked again, because it is not bringing out the best in singles or even pairs skaters. Flow and edging and beautifully held out movements are lost in singles. I agree ice dancing is more interesting/satisfying in the last couple years, due to North American influence and marina/igor's amazing talents.

But back to singles, Ashley Wagner is very good, very much the full package. mirai is wonderful, magical. not since kwan have we seen that kind of charm. And she does a lot of elements better than Kwan. She is not a robot, so give her some time. We have seen Rachel's best I feel because she's at Stanford studying. I think she's mazing and even though her body looks matronly (no neck, sloopy shoulders) she is a very good skater who should have had 5th at The Olympics.

Mirai is not washed up, beleive in her natural talent. We have Agnes who is very good, and Alissa is elegant and a great beauty but not a confident compeititor. Michelle was an aberration. We were spoiled by her 10 year reign at or near the top. She would not be winning if she had to do what is expected of these girls. I like the majestic skating of Kostner when she is not wiping out. Tiny Takahashi and Chan have the advantage as petite skaters. As for me I miss the quad triple doubles of the Russians and the 3 quad skates of Goebel and the amazing Stoiko. I also feel, the jumping requirements should be different for women than men. I think there are very few who can compete back to back clean skate. They are the olympic and world champions that are tough as nails, have the skills...very few folks, like Evan, Yuna. I notice Van der perrin was dissed but I loved seeing the jumps and the masculine looking mature man's body. The CoP programs are busy, hectic, frenetic, everything that ice dance used to be and everyone hated it.

As for pairs, yeah there is S and S and the Zhangs are back, but no one like Sale and Pelletier, Elena and Anton since they quit and 2002 changed skating. There's gotta be something between 6.0 skating and CoP where judging is transparent. I personally feel these boards are very tough on the us ladies who deserve better. I am very critical but loved Ashley's SP. It was wonderful. Great choreography.

I love Mirai, as she is unique, like Sasha. They are artistic beings like Toller Cranston, not robots. Michelle, as grand as she often was, did not have the difficulty these skaters current have. And she was a once in a century feirce, Witt like competitor. FS is really hard, I never got far, and I was a fabulous dancer. Hardest sport there is in my opinion. It is sad there is not enough time for someone with perfect or near perfect extension to do MK's famous spiral (and get a bit of rest for the next triple jump.) It's CoP that's not quite right, not the skaters.

Flatt is doing something no Japanese skater is doing, elite skting and stanford.

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Shizuka Arakawa went to one of the top Universities in Japan, graduated with a Social Studies degree and competed as an elite skater. She completed her exams the same week she won the World Title. (I believe Arakawa may have even had a job ). :lol: Her skating improved though obviously when her studies wined down.

I don't see the point of bringing up Michelle had tutors so what? Michelle seems to be doing just fine academically. Went back to college after skating, now is working on her Masters and a career in diplomacy. Seems to me that its pretty smart to recognize that perhaps you can't do everything at once and do it well.

Hopefully Rachael's grades at Stanford are great because I don't think anyone can say the skating was and I mean that in the nicest way about her grades.

I'm pretty much done waiting on Mirai. :disapp:

I really hope that one day she's able to find that magic something that helps her to focus and perform, but she ain't got it right now. Mirai's jumps weren't that terrible but her delivery of that program was dreadful. I guess it doesn't help that the program is dreadful...I honestly think that's why she did so horribly. The program is SO BAD. There's nothing good about it. It's completely empty and dead and that's exactly the way she skated it.

I think the time has come for Mirai to branch out and try a new choreographer. Lori is wasting Mirai's talent. She needs to feel or connect to the music she's skating to and it's obvious that she doesn't have a single connection whatsoever to Spartacus, or Memoirs. You can tell the programs she actually likes because she actually comes alive. Spartacus is the worst LP she's ever had and I really hope she dumps it and comes up with something better for nationals (no time to change it now; COC is next week).

skateluvr said:

It's CoP that's not quite right, not the skaters.

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Well, CoP has produced Yu-Na, so it's done something right....

With all due respect, denigrating CoP and skaters from other countries isn't going to make the US ladies any better.

skateluvr said:

I think she's mazing and even though her body looks matronly (no neck, sloopy shoulders)

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Tiny Takahashi and Chan have the advantage as petite skaters.

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I notice Van der perrin was dissed but I loved seeing the jumps and the masculine looking mature man's body.

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This is all beyond gross. I need brain bleach. :sheesh: All these comments say waaaaaaaaay more about you than they do about COP or the skaters.

prettykeys said:

Of the CoP-era ladies skaters, Miki Ando has been the most consistent in having clean back-to-back SP/LP's, yes?

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I don't think so. She has a tendency to make errors in one of the two, usually the SP. Also, once the downgrading of jumps began in 2007-2008, she rarely delivered two back-to-back performances without any sort of < or similar calls.

evangeline said:

Well, CoP has produced Yu-Na, so it's done something right....

With all due respect, denigrating CoP and skaters from other countries isn't going to make the US ladies any better.

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Yu Na would have done just as well, if not better, under the old system.

jenaj said:

Yu Na would have done just as well, if not better, under the old system.

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She would not have bothered improving her spins and line on her spiral to the extent she did, and would have skated much emptier programs with few transitions, simpler footwork, and no real need to show off her lovely skating skills. So while Yuna might have gotten results that were just as good (which is extremely doubtful: under 6.0 Mao would have won Vancouver, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves), she would not be the same skater at all, but instead much less complete and less artistic. Actually, I think the best skater to compare Yuna to is Kristi Yamaguchi, and Kristi didn't really develop as an artistic skater until she turned pro, because in 6.0 she did not really need to be one.

Shizuka is not skating currently, and thanx for info.

I would say rachael is studying bioengineering, not social studies. I did love Shizuka and still watch her triple-triple-triple on youtube. She is so gorgeous...hard to say who I love in japan over the years most but Shizuka as an amateur (sad she did not do all she could have at Oly tho, she played it safe knowing sasha would prolly fall), Yuka Yuka Yuka as a pro, and amazing little woodsprite Mao who is ususally so delightful, plus her triple axels. So I love Japan's skaters, lately Akiko and Haruka. The depth is amazing and japanese ladies have incredible drive...Oh, I almost forgot Miki Ando!.... I expect japanese ladies to take at least one spot at next Olympics, it looks like a battle between japanese ladies and russian baby ballerinas.

Sadly I don't see an american or even european on that podium, but we have good skaters. Ashley Wagner will I hope make it through, and Agnes will be a champion. Something is up with Mirai, I think the change in her body and her feeling she is not supported as two issues. But she's amazing when on and she has it all. She just needs to decide. Alissa could be number 1 with her talents but she is skittish, not a competitor.

Still, as I said, currently, no one else but Rachel Flatt is trying to do both at THAT academic level. When she was really able to skate full time, she did two fabulous Olympics routines. She is a USA champion and that is quite an accomplishment.

The point about Michelle was she had tutors since age 13 to eat and breathe skating. She did not even complete a semester at 18. She went back to school at 25 after she no longer was in winning form. People should not compare student/athletes to just plain athletes. But everyone in USA laments MK is gone, poor us, Sasha is gone. Everyone used to go nuts over Sasha not having competition killer instinct like MK, KW etc.

I would say the japanese work ethic is incredible and I don't know if any female skater here in USA has the drive of the top Japanese skaters, with the possible exception of Ashley Wagner. She has not gotten her due in USA yet, but if she remains uninjured, this girl will be a force. I loved her skates and I think she is world class. Agnes is a great competitor and I can't wait to see her. Why should we Americans bash our skaters when so many others do it for us? Look at the canadian girls. Awful. and they are born on skates. One of my favorites for years was Jro. But Canada should have a deep ladies field and they do not. I think we in US can forget Caroline Zhang tho USFSA does not want to. 1 year from now we may have a new star ala Tara, Sarah, Michelle, Sasha, Jenny, Angela, Nancy, Roz, Yama...we won't be off the map for long. We have had two top ice dance teams, and a new world/olympic men's champion. It is not likely we will ever be able to compete with Japan because we do not have the work ethic, the sacrificial attitude, the whole cultural thing. But we do have talented ladies. Mirai needs a new coach, I agree. I'd like to see her with Brian Orser. She is every bit as talented as Yuna and look what Brian and his choreographer did with her. I think Mirai never realized how dedicated she must be with all that natural talent. If she puts in the work, maybe she will be world champion. Maybe she should train under Yuka Sato or even better, train in Japan under Mr Sato. THAT would require her total dedication.

I'm not giving up until she does.

evangeline, there are good us skaters, and I am not bashing anyone's skaters but I must point out how since the departure of the great joannie rochette, canada's ladies were just awful at skate canada.

The world bashes the US ladies daily on these boards. Look at Europe, look at Canada. It is tiring to hear how awful Rachel Flatt is now. Maybe she cannot do both but I give her huge props for trying. I like and respect Rachel, and she does not get the respect she has earned on this board or another. Snarky comments about her yes, matronly type figure. I have heard every bad thing about an amazing, brilliant skater. And she is brilliant as a student. This girl has more to offer the world than her triple- triples. Now Mirai 's body has changed and boarders complain she is "deconditioned." How do they know? I have faves all over the planet but excuse me if I say some good things about USA's current ladies.

That's a bad thing????

evangeline said:

Well, CoP has produced Yu-Na, so it's done something right....

With all due respect, denigrating CoP and skaters from other countries isn't going to make the US ladies any better.

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With all due respect back at you, many people don't see CoP as great. Yuna Kim was an "awkward" (so said Orser) jumping talent brought to bloom by great Canadian skater/coach/choreographers. She would excel under 6.0 ,CoP or any thing they threw at her. A great skater, a strong drive to win made her a champion. Brian Orser can take lots of credit, not the scoring system that rewarded her.

skateluvr said:

S

Still, as I said, currently, no one else but Rachel Flatt is trying to do both at THAT academic level. When she was really able to skate full time, she did two fabulous Olympics routines. She is a USA champion and that is quite an accomplishment.

The point about Michelle was she had tutors since age 13 to eat and breathe skating. She did not even complete a semester at 18. She went back to school at 25 after she no longer was in winning form. People should not compare student/athletes to just plain athletes. But everyone in USA laments MK is gone, poor us, Sasha is gone. Everyone used to go nuts over Sasha not having competition killer instinct like MK, KW etc.

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Rachael isn't the only skater who has gone to a top college and gone to a top college while skating (Debbie Thomas, Emily Hughes, Paul Wylie are examples both found doing both was difficult. Paul got his results when Harvard was done.

School/Education is very important but I don't think its fair to criticize others if they decide you know what I'll focus on skating, and then I'll get my college education. Its not fair to say they aren't dedicated or they don't value education. I remember reading an article where it said that Michelle at University of Denver studied for hours and hours to make sure she got top grades.

If Michelle decided she couldn't do college/skating together. It may not be because she didn't value her education. But rather it may be that she wanted to give her education the attention it deserved. But she also felt she had given so much of her live to skating. And had gotten to be at the top of her sport, and had so many years left at the top of her sport. That she wanted to focus on that with her whole heart? Whats wrong with this life decision. I doubt Michelle has any regrets about it.

People are all about multi tasking and it is a good thing. But sometimes we can multitask so much that we aren't able to do everything well, or as well as we could do it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a skater saying. Look I have a few years left in my skating career. I want to focus on being the best I can be. And then I'll go college and I'll put my focus on being the best student I can be.


There are times when we can get away with doing everything at once. But then there are times when a single minded devotion is necessary. I'd argue that watching Rachael's skating and the way it is. Its just not possible for Rachael to be the best Stanford student she can be and the best skater she can be. Now hopefully its the skating and she's kicking butt! at Stanford. But I think its clear thats she's not doing her best at (the skating). Its fine with Rachael wants to continue to compete too, but I don't think its fair at all to critcize others for deciding at this point in their lives they want to make their skating their priority.

And the thing is none of those people I've mentioned including Flatt proved that Michelle was wrong that you could be World Champion and go full time at elite school (except for maybe Arakawa and even she was not exactly in Japan training full time while in school) And that what Kwan wanted to be World/Olympic champion.

doubleflutz said:

She would not have bothered improving her spins and line on her spiral to the extent she did, and would have skated much emptier programs with few transitions, simpler footwork, and no real need to show off her lovely skating skills. So while Yuna might have gotten results that were just as good (which is extremely doubtful: under 6.0 Mao would have won Vancouver, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves), she would not be the same skater at all, but instead much less complete and less artistic. Actually, I think the best skater to compare Yuna to is Kristi Yamaguchi, and Kristi didn't really develop as an artistic skater until she turned pro, because in 6.0 she did not really need to be one.

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I don't think it's delusional to think that Yu Na would have beaten Mao under 6.0 at Vancouver. Mao had a bad stumble in the middle of her long program--on a toe-loop, I think--and that would have been enough to put Yu Na at least even on tech. And under 6.0, Yu Na would have won on artistry--in fact, her artistry would have been better under the old system without the grab-a-foot spiral sequence and all the busy stuff. I think it is exactly backwards to say that artistry wasn't required under 6.0. To the contrary, COP has devalued artistry. That Yu Na managed to show artistry under that system is to her credit, not the system's. But several aspects of her artistry could have been improved. She does not, for instance, have the line of a Cohen or Kwan and her spirals are weak. I think she would have worked harder to improve the artistic aspect of her skating under 6.0 to up her second mark and as a result, been even better than she is now. And Kristi Y. was always an artistic skater--much more so than her chief rival, Midori Ito.