PJ Kwong's All-Time Top 10 Ladies

jenaj said:

Magnussen was better at figures than Janet Lynn. Judged by modern-day standards, which values free skating, Janet Lynn was a better, and certainly more artistic, skater.

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Perhaps but I think one could argue that Magnussen was the more well rounded skater than both Lynn and Schuba. She was good at both figures and free skating, which were both important. Trixie was able to get the lead she did because Schuba was arguably the best EVAH at school figures :lol: It wasn't just Trixie though Lynn was behind figures wise. I've heard people say that there would have probably been less complaining if Lynn had lost out to skaters like Magnussen (very good) Holmes (pretty good) free skaters.

Notice they don't show her eating any corn syrup...perhaps they learned their lesson

bekalc said:

Perhaps but I think one could argue that Magnussen was the more well rounded skater than both Lynn and Schuba. She was good at both figures and free skating, which were both important. Trixie was able to get the lead she did because Schuba was arguably the best EVAH at school figures :lol: It wasn't just Trixie though Lynn was behind figures wise. I've heard people say that there would have probably been less complaining if Lynn had lost out to skaters like Magnussen (very good) Holmes (pretty good) free skaters.

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That makes sense. Lynn's figures were always her bete noir. I"m sure Magnussen was a more all-around skater, and it's possible she was more able to remain cool under pressure. The story of how the short program was instituted for 1973, and how Janet fell twice in the short program (I looked it up, and she was in 12th place after the short) to make winning the gold impossible, indicates that there was a "choke" element to Janet's skating. She won that long program, I gather, but it wasn't enough after what happened in the short. Nonetheless, I'd rather watch her skate than many others who won gold medals all over the place.

Janet Lynn deserves to be on a top 10 list because she played a major role in revolutionizing figure skating. I've seen clips of female skaters before her time but none of them seemed to have that connection to the audience as she did. She definitely was a main factor in making it more of a spectator's sport.

dorispulaski said:

There are only 3 things that I remember about Karen Magnussen:
1. She broke both legs, and they showed it on Wide World of Sports (I was watching)
2. She came back to win Worlds the next year
3. After winning Worlds, she won an endorsement Blue Bonnet margarine. She was the worst spokesperson I've ever seen-they showed her enthusing about the margarine, biting into the bread with the margarine on it, and them making a face like she had bitten into the foulest thing she had ever tasted, but still had to say how good it was.

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how'd she manage to break both legs?!

These remembrances of Janet and Karen, are interesting. Skating fans (me included) like to fall back on the general statement that Janet was a poor figure skater, but an excellent free skater. It fits nicely into the analysis of Magnussen (balanced and good at both disciplines) and Schuba's skating (invincible figures and really weak free skating). However, it is worth noting some of the other facts and not just established memories of that time.

First, you can't remember those years (69-73) accurately without including Julie Lynn Holmes and Gaby Seyfert in the conversation. Julie was Janet's great domestic rival and a bit of a Peggy Fleming clone who was also coached by Carlo Fassi. From 69 to 71 they routinely split their results at Nationals and Worlds. Janet won at home, while Julie placed higher abroad. Part of the reason for that was that Julie could build up a larger gap in figures between her and Janet at Worlds because there were other skaters who could squeeze in between them. Under the standards of the time, Holmes was the more well rounded skater, very strong at figures and a solid free skater. She moved up the ranks at worlds each year from 4th to 3rd to 2nd routinely placing ahead of both Lynn and Magnussen. It was entirely reasonable to expect that she would be favored to medal in Sapporo as much or maybe even more so than Janet or Karen based on that track record. Unfortunately for her, she had a very poor showing in the free skate at the Olympics, placing behind even Schuba in that segment. She fell from 2nd to 4th and retired immediately afterward.

Part of the assessment of Holmes is that not only did she place well in figures, but she also scored well relative the Schuba. For those who don't know, scores under 6.0 in those days were converted to point totals. That fact combined with the high number of figures being performed, allowed those who excelled at them to build up huge leads heading into the LP or SP (post 72). She was able to score well enough to stay within striking distance of Schuba. Unfortunately for her, that striking distance still required a spectacular free skating performance which she often fell short of delivering. Had Julie not competed, Janet and Karen would certainly have moved up the ranks a notch or so and would likely have won at least one more world medal each.

That brings up Gaby Seyfert: Peggy Fleming's rival, 68 Olympic silver medalist, three time world silver medalist and 69-70 World Champion. She was very solid at figures (usually second to Fleming) a fine, athletic free skater (first female triple loop) and ironically somewhat similar to Magnussen in both build and skating style. When Schuba really started to ramp up her performance in figures, Seyfert was still able to win for two years by being very strong at both segments and by staying close enough in figures totals. She was assumed to be the favorite for Sapporo in 72, but retired early and started a family, unable to pursue a pro career due to communism. That retirement threw skating into a bit of an unexpected mess. Suddenly and really for the first time, you had the top ranked skater winning because she was so strong at figures that her free skating was almost immaterial. Combined with the new presence of skating on TV, and there was a sudden and serious problem facing skating.

Seyfert's retirement also opened the door for both Janet and Karen to move up if they improved their figures. One overlooked fact is that Janet worked extremely hard over the course of her career to improve her figures and was rewarded for that work by the 72 and 73 seasons. She moved up several spots in her placement compared to prior years and in fact was 2nd in figures at 73 Worlds. She lost that event due to her meltdown in the brand new SP, not because of her figures. (Still she beat Karen in the LP at Worlds every year from 70-73 and also at the Olympics) It's also worth noting that Magnussen was not always strong at figures either. She usually placed ahead of Janet, but not necessarily higher than their other rivals. Like Janet, she improved her placement over time.

So as you can see, that period was not nearly as cut and dried as we recall. But as the clips I posted showed, there were other worthy names from that period who helped shape the skaters Lynn and Magnussen became.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_World_Figure_Skating_Championships#Ladies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_World_Figure_Skating_Championships#Ladies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_World_Figure_Skating_Championships#Ladies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_World_Figure_Skating_Championships#Ladies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_World_Figure_Skating_Championships#Ladies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_1972_Winter_Olympics#Ladies

About 15 years ago, The New York Times published a similar Top 10 Ladies list compiled by Benjamin T. Wright, a member of the Figure Skating Hall of Fame. His list was interesting--very dated now, as it didn't include ladies from the past two decades--but still interesting. Wish I could find a copy of it online somewhere. His criteria for placement on the list was overall competitive record at Olympics, Worlds, and Europeans, with the competitions weighted in that order. I don't remember the whole list or all the rankings but here was some of it.

Sonja Henie. Her competitive record was, and still is, clearly unmatched, therefore Wright had her at the top of his list.
Carol Heiss Jenkins. From a competitive results standpoint, the most successful American skater ever.
Barbara Ann Scott.
Tenley Albright.
Katarina Witt.
Peggy Fleming.
Sjoujke Djikstra. (Probably spelled that wrong--sorry.)
Cecilia Colledge. Not on list for competitive results, but because she was the first to perform certain important elements such as (I think) the Biellmann spin and double jumps.

I can't remember the other two on his list unfortunately. I know that Dorothy Hamill was not on it; nor was Linda Fratianne or Annett Poetzch; I can't remember about Janet Lynn.

Olympia said:

That makes sense. Lynn's figures were always her bete noir. I"m sure Magnussen was a more all-around skater, and it's possible she was more able to remain cool under pressure. The story of how the short program was instituted for 1973, and how Janet fell twice in the short program (I looked it up, and she was in 12th place after the short) to make winning the gold impossible, indicates that there was a "choke" element to Janet's skating. She won that long program, I gather, but it wasn't enough after what happened in the short. Nonetheless, I'd rather watch her skate than many others who won gold medals all over the place.

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I think it is unfair to label Janet as a choker as far as her free skating is concerned. That might be more applicable to her performances in figures where she has admitted to getting very nervous. The SP was brand new. All of the psychological pressures we are familiar with now, were uncharted territory for skaters back then. Many were utterly terrified by it and its mandated elements. Given that she only competed in a couple of SPs in her entire career, it's not really fair to ascribe her failures in them to a broader assessment of her competitive mettle over a much longer career. A better assessment would be the fact that she won the LP at Worlds and the Olympics by very healthy margins from 71-73 and was second in that segment in 70. Yes, she did place 12th in the SP in Bratislava, but she blew away the field in the LP. Sadly, it was not enough to make up the lead Magnussen had by that point. She was undeniably the best free skater of her era, both because of her beauty and her difficulty and consistency in that segment. Magnussen was very, very good, but not spectacular like Janet. (FYI, they all screwed up to some degree or another in the LP at Sapporo).

Also, for those who make the point that they never heard of Janet until recently, that lack of awareness should not reflect on her quality as a free skater. She more or less retired from pro skating very shortly after she entered it due to health issues (asthma) and starting a family that grew very large very quickly. She made a return to the sport in the early 80s for a time, but then left again to focus on her children. She's a very shy person and prefers to remain out of the spotlight. She never took the steps to shore up her legacy like other skaters have and she never really cashed in on her fame. None of that diminishes her greatness in my mind.

^^ Thank you, thank you, thank you, jcoates, for that "right on" post. Janet Lynn's skating transcended the sport.

Pre 1968:

Madge Syers
Cecilia Colledge
Sonja Henie
Herma Szabo
Maribel Vinson
Tenley Albright
Carol Heiss
Barbara Ann Scott
Beatrix Loughran (the only American to win 3 Olympic medals: 2 in singles, 1 in pairs)
Laurance Owen (and honorable mentions: Fritzi Burger; Megan Taylor; Theresa Weld – great contributions to USFS when she retired)

1968 to 2010:

Michelle Kwan
Janet Lynn
Dorothy Hamill
Peggy Fleming
Katarina Witt (for her competitive fire mostly)
Midori Ito
Yu Na Kim
Kristi Yamaguchi
Lu Chen
Tonya Harding (and honorable mentions: Debi Thomas; Mao Asada; Shizuka Arakawa; Sasha Cohen)
Could have been better than everyone: Nicole Bobek
For their professional careers: Denise Beillman; Yuka Sato; Caryn Kadavy
Gorgeous looking on the ice, beautiful in the air, soul of an artist, but blah technical proficiency: Oksana Baiul

Interesting factoids: Sonja Henie holds 11 World medals + 3 consecutive Olympic gold; Michelle Kwan holds second most number of World medals with 9 (+ 2 Olympic medals and 12 U.S. medals, including 9 consecutive gold)

Possibilities current day:
Alissa Czisny
Carolina Kostner
One or two of the Russian babies on the horizon
Mirai Nagasu (if she can pull herself and her talent together)
Ksenia Makarova (if she can redeem her start to this season and get it together)
Kira Korpi (with more consistency)

Here's a link to someone's list of THE HOTTEST FEMALE FIGURE SKATERS:
Wow, a few of these I never heard of before. I'd have to add Ekaterina Gordeeva, Yu Na Kim, Ksenia Makarova, Alissa Czisny, and maybe Kira Korpi and Carolina Kostner to this list --

http://gamevip.com/2010/10/top-ten-hottest-female-figure-skaters/

jcoates said:

I think it is unfair to label Janet as a choker as far as her free skating is concerned. That might be more applicable to her performances in figures where she has admitted to getting very nervous. The SP was brand new. All of the psychological pressures we are familiar with now, were uncharted territory for skaters back then. Many were utterly terrified by it and its mandated elements. Given that she only competed in a couple of SPs in her entire career, it's not really fair to ascribe her failures in them to a broader assessment of her competitive mettle over a much longer career. A better assessment would be the fact that she won the LP at Worlds and the Olympics by very healthy margins from 71-73 and was second in that segment in 70. Yes, she did place 12th in the SP in Bratislava, but she blew away the field in the LP. Sadly, it was not enough to make up the lead Magnussen had by that point. She was undeniably the best free skater of her era, both because of her beauty and her difficulty and consistency in that segment. Magnussen was very, very good, but not spectacular like Janet. (FYI, they all screwed up to some degree or another in the LP at Sapporo).

Also, for those who make the point that they never heard of Janet until recently, that lack of awareness should not reflect on her quality as a free skater. She more or less retired from pro skating very shortly after she entered it due to health issues (asthma) and starting a family that grew very large very quickly. She made a return to the sport in the early 80s for a time, but then left again to focus on her children. She's a very shy person and prefers to remain out of the spotlight. She never took the steps to shore up her legacy like other skaters have and she never really cashed in on her fame. None of that diminishes her greatness in my mind.

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I didn't at all mean to diminish Janet's beauty and quality! Thank you for the eloquent defense of her gorgeous skating. Maybe that short program was just one of those things that happens. Regardless, as you point out, no one of her era could match her in free skating. And the lack of a world medal doesn't at all affect my admiration for her or my flat-out love of her skating.

You're right that she didn't stick around to polish her reputation, and I got the impression that she was rather on the shy side, but the nice thing is that both fans and skaters have burnished her star on her behalf. The first book I ever read by a skater was an early book by Toller Cranston (and how I wish I had had the money for it at the time!), in which he praised just two ladies' skaters: Laurence Owen and Janet Lynn. Practically everyone else in skating who ventures a list of greats seems to include Janet. That's the way it should be, it seems to me.

Olympia, I did not mean to sound like I was scolding you. I was focusing more on the fact the many skating fans tend to remember Janet (and many other past greats) based on established narrative more than details. Janet was a tremendous competitor. She won almost all of her national titles from behind because of Holmes' very fine school figures. Similarly, she made up very large deficits at Worlds to eventually place well and later to medal twice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCYCvsnkVbY (BTW note the appearance by Bezic in this segment and the narration by Wilson. Sandra was Janet's contemporary and saw her compete firsthand, while Tracy would have grown up watching her compete as an up and coming skater. Given the discussion of Canadians' opinions, I thought this was worth noting.)

jcoates said:

Olympia, I did not mean to sound like I was scolding you. I was focusing more on the fact the many skating fans tend to remember Janet (and many other past greats) based on established narrative more than details. Janet was a tremendous competitor. She won almost all of her national titles from behind because of Holmes' very fine school figures. Similarly, she made up very large deficits at Worlds to eventually place well and later to medal twice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCYCvsnkVbY (BTW note the appearance by Bezic in this segment and the narration by Wilson. Sandra was Janet's contemporary and saw her compete firsthand, while Tracy would have grown up watching her compete as an up and coming skater. Given the discussion of Canadians' opinions, I thought this was worth noting.)

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I totally agree regarding Janet as a competitor. I have only watched Janet on YouTube, but think she is not just the best free skater of her era, but also one of the best of all time. She was also a prodigy. Look at this performance at the '68 Olympics when she was only 14:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jukiKL0di58&list=FLT2IFgeponCwsOmaGDVXmoQ&index=27&feature=plpp_video
I like to compare it to her final performance, to the same music at the '83 World Pros, when she was 30:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvElljzi7rE&list=FLT2IFgeponCwsOmaGDVXmoQ&index=35&feature=plpp_video

Holy cow, Lynn did a combination in 1964! And look at that jump out of footwork. She was a marvel at every age. No wonder people remember her to this day but couldn't pick out a photo of some of her contemporaries. What an athlete as well as an artist.

Yeah it is true Magnussen might have been the best overall skater of the early 70s. Still she isnt remembered at all today except by Canadians or much older skating fans, so she really doesnt belong in an all time list. She didnt make any lasting impact outside her own era, which Lynn obviously did.

Dragonlady said:

Magnussen was more athletic than artistic.

I also note that the title of the list is "P.J. Kwong's Top 10 List". She doesn't pretend to be doing THE definitive list of all time. I think it would be interesting to see who we would put on our own personal lists. Mine would not include Katt Witt. I thought she was technically weak and won on intimidation and by flirting with the judges. YMMV.

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Witt was not technically weak for the time. From 1982-1985 she was probably the best female jumper in the World (other than Zayak in 82 and young Ito in 84).
She also has no controversial titles other than maybe the 88 Worlds.

Olympia said:

Holy cow, Lynn did a combination in 1964! And look at that jump out of footwork. She was a marvel at every age. No wonder people remember her to this day but couldn't pick out a photo of some of her contemporaries. What an athlete as well as an artist.

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It was in 1968. The combo was a double axel, double loop. She also did a triple salchow, but landed it on both feet.

For that matter, you'd have to say Zayak had more of an effect outside her era than most, via the Zayak rule.

jenaj said:

It was in 1968. The combo was a double axel, double loop. She also did a triple salchow, but landed it on both feet.

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Whoops! My bad. I was thinking of the cycle before Janet, and then I thought about Peggy Fleming, and somehow my brain twisted it into the cycle before Peggy's main cycle--so I subtracted an extra four years. Thanks for catching that.

It still was pretty amazing to see, wasn't it? And watching her skate from fourteen or so to thirty makes one realize that she was extraordinary for an extraordinarily long time.

Thanks for all the historical perspective and links, jcoates.

Olympia said:

Holy cow, Lynn did a combination in 1964! And look at that jump out of footwork.

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And a double(?) salchow in the opposite direction, ~2:54.

No wonder people remember her to this day but couldn't pick out a photo of some of her contemporaries. What an athlete as well as an artist.

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I think the point of some of this discussion is that Canadians are just as likely to remember Karen Magnussen because she was a big part of the Canadian skating narrative of the era. Not so much in the US narrative. Especially considering that Dick Button, who did the most to shape that US narrative, was married to Janet's coach for several years shortly after Janet retired from competition.

Of course her skating deserved the acclamation. But the focus of the historical narrative changes depending on who's writing the history. I wonder what it looked like in the Austrian media.

And in Austria

Like the Karl Schaefer Memorial?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Schäfer

Karl was a 2 time Olympic Champion.