Free Dance Cup of China

CARA · Nov 6, 2011

wallylutz said:
I just learned that Alla Shekhovtsova, the wife of Valentin Piseev (wife of the head of Russian skating fed) was in Shanghai for the Cup of China as well even though the actual Russian judge on the ice dance panel was not her. This is an interesting coincidence.

Thanks for the information. A coincidence, indeed. :think:

Let's just hope that the same "coincidence" does not happen at NHK Trophy. But then again, I/K, the last year's Russina "IT" teams are skating there, so the Shibs might be the "unfortunate" recipients of "unfortunate coincidence" to be sure that the "Yankee upstarts" stayed puched down...

LLLLutz · Nov 6, 2011

wallylutz said:
I just learned that Alla Shekhovtsova, the wife of Valentin Piseev (wife of the head of Russian skating fed) was in Shanghai for the Cup of China as well even though the actual Russian judge on the ice dance panel was not her. This is an interesting coincidence.

Oh, these evil Russians !
Wouldn't win anything without cheating !

DianaSelene · Nov 6, 2011

I know that some people saying "evil Russians" are saying it in way to be funny... But it's not. I would rather that such remarks would not be made.

chuckm · Nov 6, 2011

Madame Piseev was at CoC and sat on the PAIRS and the LADIES judging panels. While she was there, I'm sure she bent the ears of the UZB, UKR and RUS judges on the Ice Dance panel....

CARA · Nov 6, 2011

chuckm said:
Madame Piseev was at CoC and sat on the PAIRS and the LADIES judging panels. While she was there, I'm sure she bent the ears of the UZB, UKR and RUS judges on the Ice Dance panel....

Thank you for the information, again. I wonder how many naive, gullible and enthusiastic skating fans have the madam Piseev successfully turned into cynics...:think:

bekalc · Nov 6, 2011

dorispulaski said:
Re Thought 3; Sad to say, yes. And I am not a member of the ice dance posture police.

This used to be the Russian school of ice dances's major strong points - posture, carriage, & extension, resulting (so we were told) from extensive ballet training, etc.

I am not at all sure how they managed to produce Bobrova in Russia. Have they no ballet schools any more .

Its frankly called a system collapse. Not only did a lot of their coaches move to coach in other countries, but a lot of the young talent who would have been discovered in the Soviet era, were not discovered. This being said coaches have moved back and skating is very popular and there is a resurgent of young talent. I think placemaking team is where its frankly at. I'm not sure they will have a gold medal winning team by Sochi, (I/K seem to be floundering) but I think looking at their dominance in Juniors, they will have something by 2018 if not sooner.

I'm glad to see this because while I hate the politiks, I absolutely miss what their best teams brought to the table. (The drama, Passion but combined with beauty, posture, and technique).

And you know what people can complain about the Soviets and the judging system being unfair etc. But one could argue that under a more objective system, K/P would have dominated from 1986 till their retirement. (If not from 1985 on) Of course if they had won in 1988 perhaps they would have retired and we'd have never seen their Bach FD. Which is I guess the only argument for keeping younger teams down. Heck K/P would have been competitive today.

Buttercup · Nov 6, 2011

This is beyond offensive. One wonders, if the Russian Fed is so masterful at politkking, how it is that so many brave non-Russians nontheless manage to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

I'm not a fan of Bobrova and Soloviev by any means and I think they were very generously marked. But the suggestion that cheating was involved in their win, really? They're the Euro silver medalists and the Russian no. 1s, skating in a none-too-brilliant field, what did you expect? And they were marked high almost across the board; was the tech panel in on the fix the get them the levels? Did the British and American judges play along, and the Australian too? You'd think that the NA medal sweep at Worlds - in Moscow, no less - would be enough to cure conspiracy-minded fans of the belief in the all-powerful politiks of the Russian fed, but apparently not. Either offer proof - and no, the presence of a powerful Russian judge who's been to loads of other events is not proof - or drop it.

Everyone plays the political game; stop pretending it's limited to one country/continent. If you don't like the implications of having a judged sport, go watch some people ski down a hill (to paraphrase David Pelletier). And at the end of the day, all the lobbying in the world doesn't help unless the skaters deliver when it matters. Bobrova and Soloviev did their job. The end.

(I am not now nor have I ever been Russian)

ILoveFigures · Nov 6, 2011

Buttercup said:
This is beyond offensive. One wonders, if the Russian Fed is so masterful at politkking, how it is that so many brave non-Russians nontheless manage to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

I'm not a fan of Bobrova and Soloviev by any means and I think they were very generously marked. But the suggestion that cheating was involved in their win, really? They're the Euro silver medalists and the Russian no. 1s, skating in a none-too-brilliant field, what did you expect? And they were marked high almost across the board; was the tech panel in on the fix the get them the levels? Did the British and American judges play along, and the Australian too? You'd think that the NA medal sweep at Worlds - in Moscow, no less - would be enough to cure conspiracy-minded fans of the belief in the all-powerful politiks of the Russian fed, but apparently not. Either offer proof - and no, the presence of a powerful Russian judge who's been to loads of other events is not proof - or drop it.

Everyone plays the political game; stop pretending it's limited to one country/continent. If you don't like the implications of having a judged sport, go watch some people ski down a hill (to paraphrase David Pelletier). And at the end of the day, all the lobbying in the world doesn't help unless the skaters deliver when it matters. Bobrova and Soloviev did their job. The end.

(I am not now nor have I ever been Russian)

Amen to that Buttercup! People often talk about east block judging, but I have seen too much west block judging too. This was hardly a result as a result of lobbying and politiking.

bekalc · Nov 6, 2011

Buttercup said:
This is beyond offensive. One wonders, if the Russian Fed is so masterful at politkking, how it is that so many brave non-Russians nontheless manage to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

I'm not a fan of Bobrova and Soloviev by any means and I think they were very generously marked. But the suggestion that cheating was involved in their win, really? They're the Euro silver medalists and the Russian no. 1s, skating in a none-too-brilliant field, what did you expect? And they were marked high almost across the board; was the tech panel in on the fix the get them the levels? Did the British and American judges play along, and the Australian too? You'd think that the NA medal sweep at Worlds - in Moscow, no less - would be enough to cure conspiracy-minded fans of the belief in the all-powerful politiks of the Russian fed, but apparently not. Either offer proof - and no, the presence of a powerful Russian judge who's been to loads of other events is not proof - or drop it.

Everyone plays the political game; stop pretending it's limited to one country/continent. If you don't like the implications of having a judged sport, go watch some people ski down a hill (to paraphrase David Pelletier). And at the end of the day, all the lobbying in the world doesn't help unless the skaters deliver when it matters. Bobrova and Soloviev did their job. The end.

(I am not now nor have I ever been Russian)

Yep. And I brought up K/P for a reason. Many would argue that if things had been based on the skating skills technique that either they or U/Z would have won 1991 worlds over the French. And that U/Z should have had silver at the Olympics. The French team was no where near the two Russian teams technically no matter how creative or interesting their programs were.

KKonas · Nov 6, 2011

wallylutz said:
I just learned that Alla Shekhovtsova, the wife of Valentin Piseev (wife of the head of Russian skating fed) was in Shanghai for the Cup of China as well even though the actual Russian judge on the ice dance panel was not her. This is an interesting coincidence.

Alla was Tech Controller in Dance at Skate America. She was not at Skate Canada, but did judge ladies and pairs in China. She can only judge 3 ISU events a year - so it will either be Cup of Russia, the GP Final, Euros or Worlds. Assume it will be Russia as she has an opportunity as Referee if she chooses to push B&S and I&K there.

dorispulaski · Nov 6, 2011

Not at COR Alla won't be pushing both I&K and B&S. I&K aren't there-for Russia, it's P&G, R&T, and B&S at COR

I&K's two events are NHK and TEB.

COR line up:

1 Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE CAN 1
2 Pernelle CARRON / Lloyd JONES FRA 2
3 Cathy REED / Chris REED JPN 3
4 Isabella TOBIAS / Deividas STAGNIUNAS LTU 4
5 Ekaterina BOBROVA / Dmitri SOLOVIEV RUS 5
6 Ekaterina PUSHKASH / Jonathan GUERREIRO RUS 5
7 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA / Ilia TKACHENKO RUS 5
8 Meryl DAVIS / Charlie WHITE USA 6

colleen o'neill · Nov 6, 2011

I thought B/S were good enough to win. but I dislike their programs. and I thought they were marked generously.

That much generosity is not usually expected away from home.

Which is why I hope W/P have a great skate at NHK . I certainly don't expect generosity for them in that field.

I'd love to be proven wrong.

dorispulaski · Nov 6, 2011

Yes, so do I. I don't love their programs as much this year as I did last, but I still like them a lot.

(The FD music hurts my ears, that woman screeching in French about how perfectly sick she is gives me a headache).

colleen o'neill · Nov 6, 2011

/\ wouldn't have been my choice , but I hope they skate it lights out.

wallylutz · Nov 6, 2011

As stated in the SD thread and the posts that follow this one, there is no evidence of fixed results or anomalies in judging. Again, here was a quick analysis of SD score as posted in the SD thread:

wallylutz said:
Doubtful, the score is an average of 7 scores with 2 of the highest and lowest thrown out (out of 9 judges in this case). One judge gave the Shibs 9 across the board for PCS and if that judge is American, I don't want to be in his position because being cited for national bias is not fun. Even if those 9 are removed as the highest score, such outlier still had an impact (positive) on the Shibs score, allowing another set of above average score to be kept. In this case, it may be useful to look at the median PCS score to get a more meaningful idea for each component if you suspect that the panel may be somewhat polarized (where average score is less meaningful (e.g. (9+6)/2 will produce a number that is neither 9 or 6). Shibs's median score are as follows:

SS: 7.75
LF/M: 7.50
PE: 7.75
CH: 7.75
IN: 7.50

What the median score shows us is that an average, non-partial judge would give the Shibs 7 across the board. But the median score tracks the average score very closely here. If there is anomaly, there isn't evidence supporting such theory.

I also want to reiterate that I feel the final results of Ice Dance is correct based on what I have seen and in part, I could see it coming even before the competition, hence my post in the prediction thread. Though I was a little surprised by the margin of difference and find it a little curious that Piseev's wife was in Shanghai, but that's all. I do not see any evidence of any alledged collusion in scoring at this event and find it unfair to be pointing finger at specific judges without any evidences.

CARA · Nov 7, 2011

wallylutz said:
As stated in the SD thread and the posts that follow this one, there is no evidence of fixed results or anomalies in judging. Again, here was a quick analysis of SD score as posted in the SD thread:

I also want to reiterate that I feel the final results of Ice Dance is correct based on what I have seen and in part, I could see it coming even before the competition, hence my post in the prediction thread. Though I was a little surprised by the margin of difference and find it a little curious that Piseev's wife was in Shanghai, but that's all. I do not see any evidence of any alledged collusion in scoring at this event and find it unfair to be pointing finger at specific judges without any evidences.

I agree that the Shibs left a lot of points on the table, and the placement does not seem to be in much dispute.
However, overwhelming number of posters, including yourself, Eurosports commentators and others, have remarked that S/B were overmarked and the Shibs being pushed down.

As for "evidence," how you do get higer marks on SD twizzles when Soloviev made a messy mistake while the Shibs did not? I know, some commented that the Shibs were slower and covered less ice, etc. I'm sure the tech had darn good excuse, I mean, "rationale."

As for your comment on "unfair finger pointing," that sort of things tend to happen when overwhelming number of persons question Russian teams' scores when their federation in the past actually did cheat. The Russian federation seemed to have worked real hard to earn suspicion from skating fans.

You may or may not believe this, but I do not take pleasure in writing this post. Real or alleged irregular judging is very bad for the sport. If in fact, as many suspect, B/S were overmarked, I believe it is an insult to them. And if in fact the Shibs were undermarked, it could also do real damage to their chance to gain a place in the GPF. As you know in case of a tie braker, higher total scored team gets to be qualified. So the Shibs are already handicapped in that regard.

Finally, judging irregularity can create cynics out of enthusiastic fans. To this day I wonder how much of past judging irregularities have led to the overall decline in the figure skating popularity as a sport. I hope you excuse me that that sort of thing makes me angry, because I care about this sport. And I care about skaters, including Russian skaters, who pour their hearts and souls into arduous trainings, only to come up against seemingly inexplicable scores no fault of their own.

Buttercup · Nov 7, 2011

Cara, I'll repeat what I wrote near the end of my previous post: skating has always been a political sport, and this has not been limited to one side of the Atlantic. Remember some of the interesting results at 2001 Worlds? Now, today it's B/S, last week it was Skate Chanada, the week before people were going on about Czisny's unfair home skate advantage, etc etc. Oh, and when Kostner wins it's because of Speedy, and Russia only hosted Worlds to reinstate Plushy - the conspiracy theories go on and on. I don't think we should be naive as fans, but there's such a thing as going too far. Skating is reputation based. Skaters with a good reputation benefit from some cushion. One may not like it, but usually the placements come out right even if the precise scores don't. But if one wants to allege actual cheating, there should be proof, not just ugly allegations.

As for public perception in NA, I think it's driven to some degree by the way the media reports skating. At 2010 Olys, someone (I think it was E.M. Swift) wrote after the OD that the CD results were suspicious - how dare the judges put those pesky Russians first! - but now that NA teams are ahead, all is well and the scoring is clearly objective again. Can we agree that DomShabs were very good at CDs and deserved their lead? Was it necessary to suggest otherwise? The commentators on TV often don't bother to explain the system, making results seem more suspicious than they are. For the casual fan, that can indeed create an unfortunate perception.

alithia · Nov 7, 2011

I think Russia has cheated throught the years only when they accuser is American.Sorry,but that's the truth.Not all of us are North Americans or Russians,and in Europe a lot of those cheater teams as you call them were and still are considered some of the best ever.
And one can say the same about the huge differences between Canton teams and the rest of the world.As good as they may be are they really 30 points ahead of everyone?This doesn't make cynics out of fans,because not all fans see the results as insulting.
Please, at least for once,understand that not all of the figure skating fans come from NA.And some of us are really insulted when teams we like get these kinds of comments.

What I really wonder is why S/S got 90 for that FD whereas R/T got 77 and C/L got 92 something.C/L and S/S should have more than a 5 point difference between them imo.

Are the results fair only when a NA team wins?Italy cheats,Russia cheats,everyone cheats but Canada and the US don't? And I say that being a huge V/M fan,but unfortunately from the wrong continent.

wallylutz · Nov 7, 2011

alithia said:
Are the results fair only when a NA team wins?Italy cheats,Russia cheats,everyone cheats but Canada and the US don't? And I say that being a huge V/M fan,but unfortunately from the wrong continent.

How did you drag V/M into this debacle?

They are not here, neither were any Canadian official, nor did they make any complaint about anyone, American or European.

Buttercup · Nov 7, 2011

wallylutz said:
How did you drag V/M into this debacle? They are not here, neither were any Canadian official, nor did they make any complaint about anyone, American or European.

I imagine alithia meant that being on a different continent, she doesn't get many opportunities to watch V/M skate, especially live. And it has to be said, they are pretty impressive when seen in person. I know that for me, pre-Youtube, the only events I could watch were Euros, and Worlds when in a Euro-friendly time zone. Anyway, I doubt she was trying to link V/M in any way to the CoC results - and it's fair to point out that the NA federations politik just like everyone else (in some cases, probably more effectively).

Free Dance Cup of China

CARA

LLLLutz

DianaSelene

chuckm

CARA

bekalc

Buttercup

ILoveFigures

bekalc

KKonas

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

colleen o'neill

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

colleen o'neill

wallylutz

CARA

Buttercup

alithia

wallylutz

Buttercup

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