What do audiences want to know about the IJS? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

What do audiences want to know about the IJS?

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
The only reason I can see for dividing it that way is that you think jumps are so important they should have their own category and skating is so unimportant that it doesn't deserve even one score of its own within a category.
Jumps are important to the eye of the audience, especially of the casual fans. Separating jumps from other elements helps the audience to understand the scores (Even a non-skater like me can tell who makes a nasty fall). Also from the logical point of view, jumps (rotating in the air) deviate from typical skating that involves at least one foot on the ground. In other words, jumps are naturally a distinct category.

Skating is of course very important. And that's why skating skills in my proposal are incorporated into GOE or levels for EVERY element. If it is obligatory to have a category called "skating", then let's call the combined score for both Jump and Non-jump elements "Skating Techniques".

are you OK with the "Transition" score being worth a LOT more than it's worth now? Not ~10% of the total score, but more like 25-30%? Because, as I understand your proposal, that's the only place where judges would be allowed to reflect the difference between good crossovers and weak crossovers, overall speed and ability to generate speed effortlessly, edge depth and security (apart from the elements -- and spins don't really use edges so those elements wouldn't contribute), ability to skate on both clockwise and counterclockwise curves and rarely in straight lines or on two feet, ability to use turns other than threes and inside mohawks, etc., which are currently covered under Skating Skills.
I'm OK with whatever weight determined by a consensus of experts. Please bear in mind the Transition plus Skating Skills only contain a maximum of 20 points under the current system. Say, if the perfect score for man's short program is roughly 100 points, they represent only 20% (not 25-30%) of the total score. And the percentage will be even less under my proposal because skating skills are accounted for by various elements. For instance, the ability to generate speed effortlessly during the footwork section is assessed under the Footwork category. My estimate for the weight of my Transition category is around 15% of the total score.

are you OK with Yuka taking a lead on the strength of quality and difficulty of edge-based Transitions?
Oh, yes, I am 100% pro-Yuka. Her quality will be rewarded with positive GOE and her edge-based Transitions will be taken into considerations when the technical specialists assign an overall difficulty level to the category based on a preset criterion, similar (though not identical) to how the level is assigned for Footwork.

This is what I don't understand. All elements have base marks and grades of execution. Crossovers and isolated three turns and mohawks and whatever other steps or turns the skater uses to get from one end of the rink between the elements to the other do not have base marks or grades of executions. So how do you propose they be scored? Not just their speed, but everything else about them currently listed under Skating Skills? Not to mention everything currently scored under Transitions.
In my proposal, the Transition category will have GOE and levels (hence base marks).
How do we come up with GOE and level guidelines? It's a job of skating experts, but I will describe my layman's idea in brief: First, list all attributes supposedly assessed under the category. Second, divide them into two groups: quality traits and difficulty traits. For instance, my preliminary, incomplete grouping is as follows:
Quality Traits: general speed, security of edges, edge depth, effortlessness/smoothness.
Difficulty Traits: Skating and turning in both directions, one-foot skating, holding a single edge for an extended period, number of crossovers/progressives/stroking-type movements and digs to gain/maintain momentum, use of turns other than threes and inside mohawks, etc., variations and intricacy of positions and movements.
To assign a GOE (say, -5 to +5 for this category), the judges theoretically will rate each attribute (except for "security of edges", which I will discuss later) in the Quality Traits from -5 (very poor), 0 (average), to +5 (excellent), add the total for all scores and divide it by the number of traits and come up with the mean. After some practice, judges can skip this process and directly assign a score (their estimated mean for all quality traits except for "security of edges"). The "security of edges" is like a deduction category: -0.5 for every detectable wobble and -3 for every interruptive tumble or fall. Say, a person has outstanding skating skills and execution but falls once on his crossover. A judge may still give him +2 (5 -3) for his GOE.

The level for Transitions is determined by the difficulty traits. Each trait is considered a feature. The more features demonstrated, the higher the level and thus the base mark.
 
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Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Well he shouldn't have been in the judges' area while the event was going on. Only officials should be there. That said, he could have arranged for instruction through the ISU. Tracey Wilson and Debbi Wilkes took the technical callers' training and are certified technical callers, which only enhanced their ability to note elements which would receive deductions and to instruct viewers on the NJS. As a former skater, the ISU would have welcomed his interest in learning about the system, but not while an event was in progress.

true, but he was just in the general area, IIRC, and shoot *I* could see the computers and I was just a few more rows up. Back when the CoP was being introduced, Scott was part of the same group Button was to try and improve skating by getting rid of the ISU control - so he wasn't invited to help. And he wouldn't have been welcomed.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
true, but he was just in the general area, IIRC, and shoot *I* could see the computers and I was just a few more rows up. Back when the CoP was being introduced, Scott was part of the same group Button was to try and improve skating by getting rid of the ISU control - so he wasn't invited to help. And he wouldn't have been welcomed.

But SOI, and I would assume Scott Hamilton, just signed a big contract with the ISU although I don't remember what it was about. If they're prepared to do business with Hamilton, you'd think they'd want him to do a better job of promoting their product.

Also in 2006, fans were posting online what they saw the judges doing with those computers and this lead to the seats behind the judges being blacked out and unavailable thereafter.

Maybe once 5 years ago they shooed Scotty away, but what's his excuse for doing nothing to learn the system since then?
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Maybe once 5 years ago they shooed Scotty away, but what's his excuse for doing nothing to learn the system since then?

who says he hasn't? there are a lot of folks that don't like the system even after learning it...

Scott is schmoozing the ISU because the ISU holds the keys to all of skating these days. Scott's fighting an uphill battle not just for his show but for pro skating in general...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But SOI, and I would assume Scott Hamilton, just signed a big contract with the ISU although I don't remember what it was about. If they're prepared to do business with Hamilton, you'd think they'd want him to do a better job of promoting their product.

I don't think there was any contract. Scott and a couple of TV film-flam guys floated a proposal for some pro-am shows, and the ISU passed a resolution OKing development of the idea "in principle."

I doubt if anything will come of it.
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
While broader audiences may not need to know and or want to know, I strongly believe dedicated skating fans should have the opportunity to have ACCESS at least, to more detailed scores during the course of an event should they want it.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
I assumed dragonlady's comment had something to do with SOI being a sanctioned tour so now skaters don't have to worry about elligibility if they skate in it - like Tom Collins' Champions On Ice...

but I agree, it doesn't look like Scott's new dream is getting off the ground any time soon. :no: (I say get rid of pro ams altogether and go back to pro only events like the world pro and the Grand Slam... those were awesome.
 

Danny852003

Spectator
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Question about jumping passes--

Recently Max Aaron did a 3Lz+1Lo+3S and 3F+1Lo+3Lo in his free skates at Nebelhorn and Regionals. Why was the Lutz combo deemed a 3-jump combination while the Flip combo was judged a sequence?
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
While broader audiences may not need to know and or want to know, I strongly believe dedicated skating fans should have the opportunity to have ACCESS at least, to more detailed scores during the course of an event should they want it.

Fans can access the official score page which has live event scoring for ISU championship events including GP events, which will give you technical scores, plus a break-down of PCS scores live, as they come up. The judges protocol sheets are uploaded within a few minutes of the competition ending so dedicated skating fans have all sorts of access to scoring information during and after the event.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
While broader audiences may not need to know and or want to know, I strongly believe dedicated skating fans should have the opportunity to have ACCESS at least, to more detailed scores during the course of an event should they want it.

The scores are not officially finalized until after the last skater has skated and the accountants (and referee and controller?) have verified the marks. During each actual program, the calls are only temporary until after the reviews. It might cause more trouble than it's worth to show interim marks that might end up getting changed.

But I don't see why the short program protocols shouldn't be posted immediately after they're finalized and the fans directed where to find them, instead of waiting till the whole event is finished to post any of them.

Question about jumping passes--
Recently Max Aaron did a 3Lz+1Lo+3S and 3F+1Lo+3Lo in his free skates at Nebelhorn and Regionals. Why was the Lutz combo deemed a 3-jump combination while the Flip combo was judged a sequence?

In the flip combo, he took an extra step -- landed the half loop on the left foot and stepped onto the right foot to take off for the loop. That change of foot between jumps makes it a sequence instead of a combo. And in sequences only the two highest value jumps count for points, and the whole thing is multiplied by 0.8. I don't know why they even called the half-loop in that sequence.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
^^^^^
They called the 1/2 loop in the 3F+1Lo+3Lo because it's a listed element and it is required that it be called. The 3Lz+1(/2)Lo+3S does not change feet and is therefore a three jump combo whereas in the 3F+1(/2)Lo+3Lo the skater has to "step down" from the 1/2 loop to do the 3Lo.

He did those two passes to increase his point value - the 3F+1Lo+3Lo+SEQ is worth more than a 3F+2Lo and freed up what would be a 3Lo pass somewhere else in the program and obviously he's not comfortable trying the 3F+3Lo combination (otherwise he would)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
They called the 1/2 loop in the 3F+1Lo+3Lo because it's a listed element and it is required that it be called.

Ah, OK. So if someone did, say, double axel, tap, double axel-double toe, all three rotational jumps would be called? Of course it would be silly for someone to do that under the current rules, but if they didn't understand the rules clearly they might.

Trying to think of an example not including the half loop in which there would be a good reason to do three listed jumps in a sequence, knowing you'll only get 80% credit for two of them...
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
There is another important factor in the decline in TV viewers in recent years that hasn’t been mentioned yet, and that’s the effect of the ever-expanding number of TV channels available to consumers.

First it was Michelle’s fault when interest declined – she was winning everything, then it was Michelle’s fault for not competing – no stars people recognized, then it was the SLC judging scandal – why watch if it’s all fixed, and now the decline is all due to the NJS.

Admittedly, bad commentators who have no knowledge of or interest in explaining the NJS or no US lady to cheer for haven’t helped, but Evan won the OGM, and David & White are the first American ice-dancers to win Worlds so the argument that Americans aren’t winning really doesn’t hold up either.

When Nancy was whacked at Nationals the typical deluxe package had about 50 channels and consumers had fewer choices than they do today. That amount has been steadily increasing as more and more specialty channels are added. Today I have close to 600 channels in my premium cable package and the result is that viewership for every sport except NASCAR is down across the board. Boxing is now almost exclusively on Pay Per View. Things are getting so bad that the Indy Racing League had to pay CBS to carry their races on the main network (read “free access”) in the hope of attracting more fans to the live events.

The Whack created a huge international buzz and people who hadn’t previously watched figure skating were now tuning in. You couldn’t turn on your TV without seeing some competition or another. Eventually the buzz wore off and cheesy pro comps with questionable judging dulled the public’s interest. Figure skating slowly went back to being the niche sport that people get excited about during Olympic years forget about in between, which is what it has always been.
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
I think this is just the right amount of information to help the public understand the scoring and enjoy the competition.

Like the announcers could say, in the case of a close fight between two competitors, “Here are how the scores came down: Skater A scored 40.23 on jumps compared to 37.39 for skater B. Skater B was penalized because she did not get full revolution on her triple loop.

“In non-jump elements, Skater B had all level fours on her spins and was able to make up ground, 18.76 to 16.11.

“Judging the effectiveness of the program as a whole, separate from the points gained by individual elements, the judges gave skater A a total of 63.02, to skater B’s 60.33. Skater B had lovely choreography, but Skater A’s speed and ice coverage carried the day.

“Adding these up, that’s 119.36 for Skater A and 116.48. Skater A wins the long program by 2.88 points — Not quite enough to overcome the lead of 4 points that Skater B carried over from the short program.”

Opinions? Too much information? Too little?

At the end of the ladies' free skate in Torino, the NBC analysts presented something like this, comparing Slutskaya and Cohen. Tracy Wilson, the analyst, said the comparison was needed to show people where Cohen beat Slutskaya.

I agree, mathman. Perhaps, what they can do after each skater skates is do something similar to the ordinal system. IE:

Mirai Nagasu, USA: Jumps: 5th Spins: 2nd (Alissa skated before her) Footwork: 1st Skating Skills: 2nd
Of course, the scores of the judges will still be the one compiled. This can just be a way to show viewers where people rank after they skate.
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Dragonlady--thanks for the info on tv viewership of odd sports (well, not odd as in strange--but not the big 4, football, basketball, baseball and hockey). I still long for the days of the lumberjack competitions! I used to know the names of the lumberjacks, they were on so often. Talk about a sport that used to be dominated by Americans, but was later dominated by people from other countries (in this case, not Russia or Japan but New Zealand)!

Viewership would have gone down from the mid 1990's. A lot of people who were not meant to be skating fans probably tuned in back then just out of curiosity. The skaters or seriously hardcore probably like that edges and knee bends are so important under the new system. But there is a group in the middle--neither the seriously hardcore or the completely casual--that may be getting lost. I'm in that group.

I think that listing the components separately in more categories would help. Not on some protocol you have to download, but right on the screen. If someone fell and got only an 80 for jumping but a 98 for edges and skating skills, I could understand. But seeing these huge numbers that you have to go to the internet to understand is confusing.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
There is another important factor in the decline in TV viewers in recent years that hasn’t been mentioned yet, and that’s the effect of the ever-expanding number of TV channels available to consumers.

First it was Michelle’s fault when interest declined – she was winning everything, then it was Michelle’s fault for not competing – no stars people recognized, then it was the SLC judging scandal – why watch if it’s all fixed, and now the decline is all due to the NJS.

Admittedly, bad commentators who have no knowledge of or interest in explaining the NJS or no US lady to cheer for haven’t helped, but Evan won the OGM, and David & White are the first American ice-dancers to win Worlds so the argument that Americans aren’t winning really doesn’t hold up either.

I don't necessarily agree about the number of channels being a primary factor of declining viewership. Certainly it does have effect, but the viewership of skating has dropped more relative to other sports.

As far as Kwan, I think there is a general consensus (isn't there) that her participation was beneficial for viewership. Even when she was winning, Irina, Sasha, Tara, or Maria B were always in the mix and winning some titles themselves, so Kwan never really ran the table for any extended period.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
As far as Kwan, I think there is a general consensus (isn't there) that her participation was beneficial for viewership. Even when she was winning, Irina, Sasha, Tara, or Maria B were always in the mix and winning some titles themselves, so Kwan never really ran the table for any extended period.

Later on she was castigated for not competing more often, but in the late 90's when viewership first starting dropping off, it was being said that people weren't tuning in because Michelle was winning everything and the events were boring. Kwan was blamed first for continuing to compete, and then for not competing.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Also- who even watches TV anymore? Perhaps a strategy aimed at other communication/media/social means would be more effective.

dragonlady said:
There is another important factor in the decline in TV viewers in recent years that hasn’t been mentioned yet, and that’s the effect of the ever-expanding number of TV channels available to consumers...

When Nancy was whacked at Nationals the typical deluxe package had about 50 channels and consumers had fewer choices than they do today. That amount has been steadily increasing as more and more specialty channels are added. Today I have close to 600 channels in my premium cable package and the result is that viewership for every sport except NASCAR is down across the board...

I think you guys are on to somrething here. Maybe the question we should be asking is, in the post TV era, what should figure skating be doing to get ahead of the curve.

Does Cinquanta tweet? (@speedy?)

Figure skating is already sort of old-fashioned, so the ISU has its work cut out for it.

Poodlepal said:
lumberjack competitions!

:rock: :clap:
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
That reminds me of something Peter Carruthers said about the "technical" "transitions" and the "component" scores. Which gave the impression of a three tiered scoring system that seemed like they may have been worth 33% each or something. The ISU could just tinker with the mutiples of the PCS. Like transitions could stay at a multiple of 2 and the others go down. I don't get why Ice Dance is so different in which the PCS categories have different multipliers.

No, the transition score shouldn't be weighted more heavily. They should be dropped altogether as a component score.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
re: What should they be doing post-TV... the USFSA is doing it: go to the internet... if they really wanted to get ahead... talk NBC/Universal (comcast) sports or ABC/ESPN Sports or CBS to create a figure skating only channel... they may just be doing that with IN - if they get enough interest they can show it'd be a viable network on its own... like the golf channel or the millions of NFL team channels... NHL channels... etc...

The Iditarod has gone all internet, and it's worked well... after Susan Butcher stopped winning and then stopped racing altogether the sport was ignored by most sports coverage outside of Alaska, there've been a couple of cable stations that tried to document it - especially when Rachel Scdoris the legally blind musher ran the race - but it wasn't a money maker (now the world poker championships is *amazing*) so it disappeared. Still interest has been drummed up via internet subsriptions, and the mushers themselves... mushers want to see their sport succeed - not for the money, the purse really sucks when you look at the cost of creating a team - for the dogs and their passion wins people over...
 
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