Mao needs victory at NHK Trophy to regain confidence

drivingmissdaisy said:

Popping one jump throughout 2 programs and landing several jumps that have troubled her in the past can lead one to conclude she is back in a big way or at least confident and on the right track.

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Really? We must be looking at two different protocols. Her FS protocol sheet is being marked and noted by the Technical Panel all over the place.

1) First jump, planned 2A as the first jump of a program for Mao? Hard to believe. Otherwise, that's a pop as well.

2) 3Lz, continued to get an edge call on it, the problem is still not fixed

3) UR the 3F, which she almost never did in the past, that's definitely a step backward

4) Error on the 3Lo, negative GOE overall

5) Her entire FS has a total of merely 3 clean Triple jumps, all other Triples are either <, e, or had execution error

The only progress we can claim is that the 3S is now attempted and landed. Everything else, absent 3A (if so, should put the 2A elsewhere, not the 1st element), 3Lz - no improvement, 3F getting <, 3Lo error. Seriously, the leap of faith here is borderline fanatic, this is just sad, scoring 120+ notwithstanding.

wallylutz said:

Really? We must be looking at two different protocols. Her FS protocol sheet is being marked and noted by the Technical Panel all over the place.

1) First jump, planned 2A as the first jump of a program for Mao? Hard to believe. Otherwise, that's a pop as well.

2) 3Lz, continued to get an edge call on it, the problem is still not fixed

3) UR the 3F, which she almost never did in the past, that's definitely a step backward

4) Error on the 3Lo, negative GOE overall

5) Her entire FS has a total of merely 3 clean Triple jumps, all other Triples are either <, e, or had execution error

The only progress we can claim is that the 3S is now attempted and landed. Everything else, absent 3A (if so, should put the 2A elsewhere, not the 1st element), 3Lz - no improvement, 3F getting <, 3Lo error. Seriously, the leap of faith here is borderline fanatic, this is just sad, scoring 120+ notwithstanding.

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Did you watch the performance?

burntBREAD said:

Did you watch the performance?

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Is this a rhetorical question?

wallylutz said:

Really? We must be looking at two different protocols. Her FS protocol sheet is being marked and noted by the Technical Panel all over the place.

1) First jump, planned 2A as the first jump of a program for Mao? Hard to believe. Otherwise, that's a pop as well.

2) 3Lz, continued to get an edge call on it, the problem is still not fixed

3) UR the 3F, which she almost never did in the past, that's definitely a step backward

4) Error on the 3Lo, negative GOE overall

5) Her entire FS has a total of merely 3 clean Triple jumps, all other Triples are either <, e, or had execution error

The only progress we can claim is that the 3S is now attempted and landed. Everything else, absent 3A (if so, should put the 2A elsewhere, not the 1st element), 3Lz - no improvement, 3F getting <, 3Lo error. Seriously, the leap of faith here is borderline fanatic, this is just sad, scoring 120+ notwithstanding.

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1) A 2A isn't a pop, you have to plan a 2A to do a 2A.
2) I was skeptical about the lutz, and she did get an edge call, but it IS better than last year when she was on a clear inside edge.
3) & 4) Errors happen, I never said she was clean I said things are a lot better than last year.
5) 3 is abut how many clean triples the top ladies are doing these days.

Look, she isn't World Champion Mao at the moment, but she is getting there, and certainly surpassed many of our low expectations here. Seeing the glass half-full isn't exactly borderline fanatic.

drivingmissdaisy said:

Look, she isn't World Champion Mao at the moment, but she is getting there, and certainly surpassed many of our low expectations here. Seeing the glass half-full isn't exactly borderline fanatic.

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Fine, that's not unreasonable. I hope your optimism turns out to be right. I am quite skeptical seeing no fully rotated 3A (fall or otherwise but fully rotated) and no clean 3Lz. Those to me, were the main things she ought to prove but she delivered none of them. Let's see how she does in Moscow in two weeks, I hope she proves me wrong.

I've read that Mao's not focusing on the 3A this season.

Regarding the lutz, I haven't heard of anyone aside from Joannie Rochette who has successfully changed their flutz into a true lutz. I don't know how easy it's going to be for Mao because she used to have such awful technique/an ENORMOUS flutz like Murakami has now (it wasn't nearly as bad here).

wallylutz said:

Really? We must be looking at two different protocols. Her FS protocol sheet is being marked and noted by the Technical Panel all over the place.

1) First jump, planned 2A as the first jump of a program for Mao? Hard to believe. Otherwise, that's a pop as well.

2) 3Lz, continued to get an edge call on it, the problem is still not fixed

3) UR the 3F, which she almost never did in the past, that's definitely a step backward

4) Error on the 3Lo, negative GOE overall

5) Her entire FS has a total of merely 3 clean Triple jumps, all other Triples are either <, e, or had execution error

The only progress we can claim is that the 3S is now attempted and landed. Everything else, absent 3A (if so, should put the 2A elsewhere, not the 1st element), 3Lz - no improvement, 3F getting <, 3Lo error. Seriously, the leap of faith here is borderline fanatic, this is just sad, scoring 120+ notwithstanding.

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1. Yes, for this actual competition she went with her coach advise and opened with a planned 2A, especially after her mistake in the SP. So no, it was not a popped jump. It made no sense to change her entire layout when it's clearly she wants to put the 3A there eventually. You don't have to believe me, read what she said after the LP
2. Her 3Lz technique improved(looked at the entry in the jump), so it's a work in progress. Yes, she still flutzes but not as severe as before
3. She almost never got an UR on her 3F last season in the GP because she was unable to land this particular jump. Her 3F technique is better this season, look at the air position and the take-off to see why.(she does not lean so much on the take off and there is no more hammer-toe). It is not a step backward just because she did a mistake in the LP on the 3F.
4. It's the same story here. I never said her jumps are perfect and she is there 100% clean. I said she had her CONFIDENCE back which allowed her to skate as good as she can in this moment. 3L is one of the most stable jump for her and the mistake on it does not change the fact. It's like saying Cynthia's 2A is not so good because she took a hard fall on it in the LP.
5. She got credit for 5 triple jumps out of 6 she tried, even though the execution was not perfect.

The 3S is not the only progress she made. She also got credit for the 2A-3T combination for the first time in years, with positive GOE. She worked on the ice-coverage and the speed going into the 2A in order to add a 3T with full rotation. A less than perfect Mao having the best LP of the season so far(she has the season best LP score) with "only 3 clean triples" means she is on the right track.
After placing a disappointing 6th place(worst placement for her) at 2011 Worlds, losing her national title, being on the pressure to prove herself, she managed to skate very well and win the LP(almost winning overall) in the best skated GP so far. So yeah, after this performance she proved the has her confidence back.( not only in the jumps but the overall feel of the program, she looked relaxed and calm).
But after your post it's quite clear you refuse to accept and acknowledge that the hard work she has done is starting to pay off. I am sure her performances will get better and better as the season progress. This is one of her best season debut performance I remember from her

wallylutz said:

Fine, that's not unreasonable. I hope your optimism turns out to be right. I am quite skeptical seeing no fully rotated 3A (fall or otherwise but fully rotated) and no clean 3Lz. Those to me, were the main things she ought to prove but she delivered none of them. Let's see how she does in Moscow in two weeks, I hope she proves me wrong.

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Kostner right now is winning major with no 3axel and no 3lutz too. I don't know why Asada can't do the same especially since she at least has a double axel/3toe. Most of these women don't have a 3flutz.

I don't know if Mao's jumps are ever going to be great again, and she may want to dust of the triple axel if she can. But its not like the adult ladies are great jumpers. Against the coming Russian jumping beans Asada's jump content needs to improve, but against the current field. Mao actually could still win. As mentioned she has other qualities.

I think NHK shows that Mao is in real trouble if she cant get the triple axel back at this point. She made 2 significant mistakes over the two programs (counting the < in the long) and lost to someone like Suzuki who also had two. Suzuki who while a very nice skater, isnt exactly a big name in the sport or a judges favorite, and last year was the #4 Japanese. Suzuki lost to her on PCS in the long, but easily beat her in PCS in the short, but I am almost sure someone like Kostner will have MUCH higher PCS than someone like Suzuki if they compete in Europe.

As for Kostner winning, what has she won of late really. A couple grand prix events? She could barely get a bronze at last years abysmal Worlds with that jump content, and lost to Czisny with numerous major errors at Skate America.

Mao's big mistake came in the SP which is much more costly than if she had made it in the LP. She also did have a few UR on her combo jump in the LP, which is like a major error on the scoring sheet although not a visible one in real time.

Akiko has also being doing well lately and she is finally getting some respect from the judges.

ETA: Looking at the protocals, Akiko not only got the highest SP score so far but she also has the highest PCS (a little more than Czisny in SA). At this point, I doubt Kostner will get much higher PCS than Akiko even if they both competed in Europe. Anyways, I think the judges at NHK got it right. They rewarded the highest total scores and highest PCS for the best SP and LP performances respectively.

Spun Silver said:

It's simply untrue that she doesn't look skinnier than before. ...

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I agree that she looks even thinner than say 2 years ago when she was thin enough already at that time.

But Yuko Kavaguti is also very thin, so for Mao too this may be her optimum weight to maximumize her performance, especially jump-wise.

To be honest, I'm worried that her body style may limit her image to being a fairy on ice.
Can she still be so for how long? Not forever, that's my worry.
And a fairy on ice will have to limit her music to the likes of Chopin, Liszt, Debussy.

Why can a thin skater like Yuko display more versatile images on ice than Mao, this I don't know for sure.

BTW that dress for her SP does NOT become her. Please Mao, anything else but not THAT.
(AFAIK those Islamic dance dresses are meant to be seductive.)

Maybe she thinks that the only way to fix underrotations is being super thin? Maybe she got too frustrated on her jump technique and this idea got stuck in her mind. The endless research of the perfect triple axel might play a big role in this. And she seems quite stubborn girl. Very, very focused on jumps, even at the expense of presentation, and in crucial years for her career (Bells). Seems that she doesn't care of what dresses they make her wear either. It's a kind of ascetic approach to skating, I suppose. But looking that thin is worse because, at least, a dress or a choreography can be changed.
A victory should convince her that her ability is still there and that eating more is not risky. And not the other way around, that she did well only because she weights nothing.
I hope someone in her family/team is taking care of this issue.

It's also interesting to see that both Mao and Akiko landed five triples in the free skate. They each got an edge call for one jump. (Mao for her flutz, Akiko on her flip). They also both have a 7 triple layout planned.

Does Yuko really have a more versatile image on the ice? She just ranges from weird to creepy to me.

miki88 said:

... Does Yuko really have a more versatile image on the ice? She just ranges from weird to creepy to me.

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I think she can play both angel and devil ... well the latter suits her a bit more perhaps.

doubleflutz said:

I've wondered this many times, but I think she actually answers it in the interview, or really in the book. She had a crazy father, who told her as a seven or eight years old, that it was her destiny to find something special to do and be the only person in the world who did that. She liked spinning so she chose that, and good for her for what she achieved, but if it happened the way she recounted it, that's emotionally abusive and messed up on her dad's part. To put that kind of pressure on a tiny kid? She must have huge lingering issues over that, and if it's been ingrained in her from that young an age that her spins are what make her special and unique, it must hurt not to have a namesake. That said, she's a big girl now, so she need to learn to deal with all that in therapy, not interviews with skating magazines.

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Meh. I think she can console herself with the fact that she's Lucinda Ruh, the standard of spinning to which all other skaters are compared.

Shame about the abusive childhood, but elite level figure skating, or any elite sport for that matter, requires a degree of child abuse. I love watching the sport, but you know how it is. I prefer watching older skaters like Akiko and Carolina. I feel like they know what they're doing, and they're pushing themselves, not their parents.

miki88 said:

It's also interesting to see that both Mao and Akiko landed five triples in the free skate. They each got an edge call for one jump. (Mao for her flutz, Akiko on her flip). They also both have a 7 triple layout planned.

Does Yuko really have a more versatile image on the ice? She just ranges from weird to creepy to me.

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.

I though for sure Mao two footed Loop was and will be marked underrotated, not her flip. Sometime you got to wonder what the hell the tech caller is doing; if she/he is just < random jumps.

For pairs, they have more versatile music and theme to choose from, i suppose. Single skaters, always the same music or style.

pangtongfan said:

I think NHK shows that Mao is in real trouble if she cant get the triple axel back at this point. She made 2 significant mistakes over the two programs (counting the < in the long) and lost to someone like Suzuki who also had two. Suzuki who while a very nice skater, isnt exactly a big name in the sport or a judges favorite, and last year was the #4 Japanese. Suzuki lost to her on PCS in the long, but easily beat her in PCS in the short, but I am almost sure someone like Kostner will have MUCH higher PCS than someone like Suzuki if they compete in Europe.

As for Kostner winning, what has she won of late really. A couple grand prix events? She could barely get a bronze at last years abysmal Worlds with that jump content, and lost to Czisny with numerous major errors at Skate America.

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Akiko has higher TES content in the SP than Mao. Singling 2A/3A with mandatory deduction gives Mao next to nothing point. So you already lost 3.3 for 2A, on top of that Mao has deficit from not doing 3+3.

wallylutz said:

Really? We must be looking at two different protocols. Her FS protocol sheet is being marked and noted by the Technical Panel all over the place.

1) First jump, planned 2A as the first jump of a program for Mao? Hard to believe. Otherwise, that's a pop as well.

2) 3Lz, continued to get an edge call on it, the problem is still not fixed

3) UR the 3F, which she almost never did in the past, that's definitely a step backward

4) Error on the 3Lo, negative GOE overall

5) Her entire FS has a total of merely 3 clean Triple jumps, all other Triples are either <, e, or had execution error

The only progress we can claim is that the 3S is now attempted and landed. Everything else, absent 3A (if so, should put the 2A elsewhere, not the 1st element), 3Lz - no improvement, 3F getting <, 3Lo error. Seriously, the leap of faith here is borderline fanatic, this is just sad, scoring 120+ notwithstanding.

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I think you should watch Calrolina FS from COC before u make the analysis. If Kostner can get away with waterdown content, two 3T, two Loop, 1 F and S... landed only 3 clean triples and get close to 120 mark, why not Mao. Even Kostner who has one of the best Flip of the ladies, often fall, stepout, touchdown more than any others skaters.

doubleflutz said:

I've wondered this many times, but I think she actually answers it in the interview, or really in the book. She had a crazy father, who told her as a seven or eight years old, that it was her destiny to find something special to do and be the only person in the world who did that. She liked spinning so she chose that, and good for her for what she achieved, but if it happened the way she recounted it, that's emotionally abusive and messed up on her dad's part. To put that kind of pressure on a tiny kid? She must have huge lingering issues over that, and if it's been ingrained in her from that young an age that her spins are what make her special and unique, it must hurt not to have a namesake. That said, she's a big girl now, so she need to learn to deal with all that in therapy, not interviews with skating magazines.

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I don't see how you came to this strong grave conclusion. From the interview:

And second of all, that’s so not what my life was about. I never said as a young child, “I’m going to be an Olympic champion, I’m going to be the World champion.” That was never my goal. My goal was always to do something in the world that nobody has done before. My dad came to me when I was about seven or eight years old and he said, “That’s how you’re going to leave your mark in the world is to do something that nobody else has done.” So that was so engrained in me that that was my goal, so I had the spins and I was more of an artist. I was a painter on the ice.

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Her dad, like most supportive and encouraging parents, passed his wisdom to his child who had free choice to accept it or not and to adapt and express it her own way. This is not pressuring and is far from being abusive. This one motivational sentence simply resonated strongly with her. So she wanted to leave a mark and she chose to do spins on ice. I don't see anything abusive or crazy about what her dad said. Children live up to expectation, high or low. Would it be better to let a child grow up with no expectation and low self esteem because the parents wouldn't want to put any "pressure" on her? No specific action was imposed on or expected of her. Just a suggested way to greatness according to an older wiser man, passed on to a child he loved.

It is a serious allegation against parents and other adults as being abusive. We shouldn't be so quick to interpret a sentence or two or to "read between the lines" to jump to conclusions. This is especially uncalled for when they are spoken by a grown up woman who has opened up, even having written a book about her experiences. She mentioned she had gone through abuses but in the interview she talked about positive experiences including her father's well meaning motivation for her to be someone special, which she did become. It sounds to me she was grateful for his words even though she had many grievances in her young life.

Quick labeling and condemnation trivialize the real and serious issue of child abuse.

eta. I think one reason so much abusiveness is seen by reading the interview is likely due to the repeated mentions of abuses by Ruh such that some people are led to earmestly look for and find the abuses. It may be reflective of the effective influence of words and the eagerness to find and condemn evil as human nature, especially when it comes to protection of children, past, present, or future. Objectivity and context sort of get left behind.

Who are you, Lucinda Ruh's father? He was probably a stage dad, as bad as Mama Chin, Mama Zhang, Mama Leung, Mama Kim, etc. I would make a longer post, but frankly I don't really like Lucinda, as a person, she whines too much for my taste, even though her spins were good.