Men's Free Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 10:55 pm EST

[Bluebonnet]

I don't skate. All I can tell is that they both skate so smoothly that they are in a class above all others. Can you explain to me why Chan's skating skills are likely higher than Takahashi's?

First, the judges, Chan fans, commentators, medias, and especially and significantly the fact that non-Chan fans all marvel Chan's skating skills to the point that you'll believe he is the best ever in this skill under current system.

Second, let's keep in mind the definition of skating skills:

Skating Skills
Definition: Overall skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc.), the clarity of technique and use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.

Criteria:

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
•Flow and effortless glide
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns
•Power/energy and acceleration
•Mastery of multi-directional skating
•Mastery of one-foot skating
•Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison (pairs and ice dancing)
•Balance in skating ability of individual skaters (synchronized)

Then watch these videos in mute mode (I think sound will interfere with your judgement). Ignore the upper body movements. Only focus on skater's feet. See what you think? (The reason I chose these two skatings is because they were one of the best skatings for each skater)

Chan's 2011 World LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo4GjP8gDok

Takahashi's 2011 NHK LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevEFHTCqeo

Let's check each criteria (I gave the edge to the skater with check marks):

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔
•Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔ Takahashi

I didn't mean that Takahashi wasn't good at all those criteria without marks. He was great. I only meant that I felt Chan did better.

[ImaginaryPogue]

I dunno, I think jettasian and Art&Sport structure their posts/arguments very similarly. Rather intersting.

[Kunstrijdster]

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔
•Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔ Takahashi

I didn't mean that Takahashi wasn't good at all those criteria without marks. He was great. I only meant that I felt Chan did better.

Interesting, I could see Chan having a slight SS edge on Takahashi, this would probably not transform into more than a quarter or half a point. Chan seems a bit cleaner, that bullet point may go to him. I think, however, that this is also due to both skaters being difficult to compare in this regard because of their very different style of movement. Chan's style looks cleaner, it's more puristic, so to speak. This shows especially in the footwork sequences. This purism adds to Chan's SS being perceived a bit higher than Daisuke's. IMO, Chan's style just showcases all those qualities better. That would be the reason why I could have him slightly ahead, by the tiniest of margins

I see Daisuke being equal on some more bullet points, mainly point one, on which I could even see him slightly ahead. (I must add I don't use the above programmes as reference) Regarding the last bullet point, I think, IMO, one foot skating is a bit over emphasised these days. (I know first hand it takes skill, that's undisputed)
A lot of people, however, put skaters into the categories one-foot or two-foot skater according to the known skating skills (without really looking at the actual skating in the programmes), so that follows a kind of a circular logic, but that's only a minor issue I have.

[periperi]

Could the experts on this forum tell me how Takahiko's skating skills compare to Patrick's now that we're on the subject? Who has the better knees, stroking, edging and so forth? I can tell that they're both very efficient as they consistently make the difficult look ridiculously easy, they have plenty of flow coming out of pretty much everything they do, and they have that lean of the body that Dick Button would always say to look out for in skaters with deep edging. I don't think I'm expert enough to determine who is better though, although I've always had the impression that Takahiko has more supple knees.

Another thing I'm interested in is how the edges sound. I've heard consistently that edges that sound scratchy are not quality edges, but that edges that make more of a growling sound is what is ideal. What about how quiet the edges are? One thing that I've always noted when I read or hear accounts of those who have seen Taka in a competition or show, is how consistently it's mentioned by people that Taka's blades on the ice are so hard to hear in comparison to everyone else's. During the NHK Trophy, Terry Gannon mentioned that he couldn't even hear Taka's blades on the ice unless he was landing a jump, and Peter Carruthers noted that no other skater in the world is as quiet as he is in terms of that. What does that say about Taka's edging quality? Do quieter edges mean better edges or just that the skater is particularly light on his feet? I've always been curious.

I wonder whether I should be making a new thread for my second question especially.

[prettykeys]

I never got that extra special something so many people got from Kwan's skating. I mean, she was good, but no magic for me. Takahashi has been hit or miss for me; I think he can overdo the expression sometimes (hip hop Swan lake comes to mind) but this year his programs are wonderful and he's really using the music well.

Moi aussi! Except to say that I've seen the MK magic a few times, in some of her more toned-down performances (e.g. not Tosca. ) Takahashi, likewise; I did not vibe too well with the (for my preferences) excessive "showy" stuff he's done in the past, but this year both his SP and LP hit the frequency I resonate best with. I love his programs this year and they have highlighted the best aspects of his skating that others have been raving about for a long time. I mean, I could recognize how good his abilities were, but it's just this year that I have fallen.

[havefun]

What is most interesting to me in the comparison of these videos is the similarities in their body proportions and angles. These guys have happy feet. It is easy for them. Dai is showcasing it better this year than previously and likely has done his homework as to how to increase those PCS. They are both in the right sport for their physical strengths.

Abbott has amazing long deep edges. He has longer legs and different body angles. He too has chosen programs this year that highlight his strengths. Particularly his lp.

The other skater I think who has come to understand their strengths and optimize them is Alissa Czisny.

It seems once skaters get to this point of understanding and maturity, their performances are enhanced by their joy and freedom to skate to their strengths.

Patrick has been great for the sport. He has proven that the pcs is as important as tech and has pushed himself technically as well. He has challenged his competitors and some have risen to the challenge. It is a win win for all.


BTW Abbott will score high points for especially his long program. He is showcasing gis strengths beautifully in his lp.

[EricRohmer]

Patrick has been great for the sport. He has proven that the pcs is as important as tech and has pushed himself technically as well. He has challenged his competitors and some have risen to the challenge. It is a win win for all.

yes!

BTW Abbott will score high points for especially his long program. He is showcasing gis strengths beautifully in his lp.

yes!

[Bluebonnet]

I see Daisuke being equal on some more bullet points, mainly point one, on which I could even see him slightly ahead.

I've weighed back and forth several times on the point one "Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement". I thought Takahashi's "precision of foot placement" was as good as Chan's. In Takahashi's program, he used more of this skill than Chan in his. But "Chan's rhythmic knee astion" was much prettier than Takahashi's. Also, I think Chan's deeper than Takahashi's edges made balance more difficult. But Chan's balance was amazing. That's why I gave Chan a check mark on this one but not Takahashi.

I wonder whether I should be making a new thread for my second question especially.

Please do! I'm not an expert. But I'd love to join the discussion and learn more on the subject.

It seems once skaters get to this point of understanding and maturity, their performances are enhanced by their joy and freedom to skate to their strengths.

True! The better skating skills, the more freedom and power they possess to transfer what they want to express in their mind into reality of what they can express on ice.

[silver.blades]

Could the experts on this forum tell me how Takahiko's skating skills compare to Patrick's now that we're on the subject? Who has the better knees, stroking, edging and so forth? I can tell that they're both very efficient as they consistently make the difficult look ridiculously easy, they have plenty of flow coming out of pretty much everything they do, and they have that lean of the body that Dick Button would always say to look out for in skaters with deep edging. I don't think I'm expert enough to determine who is better though, although I've always had the impression that Takahiko has more supple knees.

Another thing I'm interested in is how the edges sound. I've heard consistently that edges that sound scratchy are not quality edges, but that edges that make more of a growling sound is what is ideal. What about how quiet the edges are? One thing that I've always noted when I read or hear accounts of those who have seen Taka in a competition or show, is how consistently it's mentioned by people that Taka's blades on the ice are so hard to hear in comparison to everyone else's. During the NHK Trophy, Terry Gannon mentioned that he couldn't even hear Taka's blades on the ice unless he was landing a jump, and Peter Carruthers noted that no other skater in the world is as quiet as he is in terms of that. What does that say about Taka's edging quality? Do quieter edges mean better edges or just that the skater is particularly light on his feet? I've always been curious.

I wonder whether I should be making a new thread for my second question especially.

Taka's edge quality is just as good as Patrick's. In the past his programs haven't been quite as difficult, but his knees and control of the blade are just as good. I haven't seen Taka live so I I can't say for sure, but I think he's a tad slower than Patrick and he can't change direction quite as quickly. Otherwise I'd say he's pretty much Patrick's equal in SS and they are defiantly the two strongest skaters currently competing.
The sound of the edge has a lot to do with what kind of step or turn you're doing as well and the amount of force you're placing on the edge. A scratchy edge is always bad as you're too far forward on the blade and the toe picks are being used. This slows you down as well and sounding horrible and wrecking the ice. A deep edge can be silent if the edge is just being held, but if you try to work off the edge, that is push off the edge a solid one can make a grinding sound. The quieter the better, however, as the grinding sound comes from digging in and working against the ice and usually means there is a lack of speed on the skaters part and it can slow you down if you're going fast.

[mskater93]

There are certain types of skills that a "ripping sound" is admired such as a cross stroke (different from a crossover) or power pull. In the US test structure, the MIF are done in a silent rink and judges note the "rip" of the edge on cross strokes and power pulls at every level that has these skills integrated (basically, from Prejuvenile all the way to Senior). Without that rip, those skills would come to a grinding halt. It's expected that if these are integrated into the FS program that they should also have that rip if you are near enough to hear it. Each turn also has it's own "sound".

[SkateFiguring]

I have heard so many expert commentators marveling at the sound of Chan's skating and there was a report of a practice with only Chan and Kozuka on ice, and the wonderful sounds of their skates silenced the arena.

[Bluebonnet]

Could the experts on this forum tell me how Takahiko's skating skills compare to Patrick's now that we're on the subject? Who has the better knees, stroking, edging and so forth?

I am definitely not an expert. But I love this topic. So here is my two cents:

Same method as I did for Chan and Takahashi comparison. Watch the videos in mute. This time I use their programs on this GP circuit (Keep in mind that Chan's SC LP wasn't close to his best, neither was Kozuka's. But Takahashi's NHK LP was one of his best.)

Chan's SC 2011 LP: (Look at 1'58'', the balance and deep edge were insane!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlJijSgjdWM

Takahashi's NHK 2011 LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevEFHTCqeo

Kozuka's NHK 2011 LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwR6LFXn2Co

Comparison: (I gave double check marks I think was the best of them all. One check mark for the better one.)

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka✔
•Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka✔
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔✔ Takahashi Kozuka✔
•Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka
•Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔✔ Kozuka
•Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔✔ Takahashi Kozuka

After the comparison of these three top skaters, I actually appreciate Chan's skating even more than before.

[prettykeys]

The judges at NHK actually gave Daisuke higher skating skills than Patrick's SP from 2011 Worlds (8.79 versus 8.46). But Patrick got higher skating skills in his 2011 Worlds LP than Daisuke got in the LP here (9.25 versus 8.96). It's just about one notch's difference either way.

Personally (not that I'm an expert on this), I'd give Patrick around a .25 point edge over Daisuke in skating skills in general; he seems to have a little more power in his stroking. 9.25 sounds just about right for Patrick.

Edit: Here are the protocols for quick reference:
NHK SP: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SP_Scores.pdf
NHK LP: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf
Worlds 2011 SP: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._SP_Scores.pdf
Worlds 2011 LP: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FS_Scores.pdf

[evangeline]

Comparison: (I gave double check marks I think was the best of them all. One check mark for the better one.)

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka✔
•Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka✔
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔✔ Takahashi Kozuka✔
•Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka
•Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔✔ Kozuka
•Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔✔ Takahashi Kozuka

Interesting. Like Kunstrijdster, I didn't specifically use the above programs for reference (I think the better method is to evaluate multiple programs and performances), but I would rank Kozuka closer to Chan on points 1 and 3, definitely. Like silver.blades, in my opinion, Kozuka is basically Chan's equal in SS, though I would argue that Chan is superior in power/energy and acceleration. But the difference is difficult to quantify exactly, so I'd probably score them around the same, with Takahashi and Abbott (who really has great SS as well, but I think is very underrated in this aspect) very close behind, about a quarter point or so less.

[Bluebonnet]

I think in general, considering how they normally skate, Kozuka's SS is closer to Chan's than Takahashi's to Chan's only in rhythmic knee action and deep edges. But still Chan does better than Kozuka. The rest of Kozuka's are closer to Takahashi's. Takahashi's power/energy and acceleration is better than Kozuka's. Chan is generally has about 0.25 - 0.50 advantage over the second best in the world in this category. I won't mind at all if Chan receives 10s in SS on a perfect skating. I just don't see Kozuka as Chan's equal. Definitely not.

Abbott was very good on SS. He and Kozuka have the same weakness, that is they both do not have enough power/energy and acceleration. I see Abbott has the same deep edges and same soft knees as Kozuka's which are better than Takahashi's. Abbott's skating skills are as good as Kozuka's.