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Thread: Men's Free Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 10:55 pm EST

  1. #271
    just call me K or Art jockey
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I've weighed back and forth several times on the point one "Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement". I thought Takahashi's "precision of foot placement" was as good as Chan's. In Takahashi's program, he used more of this skill than Chan in his. But "Chan's rhythmic knee astion" was much prettier than Takahashi's. Also, I think Chan's deeper than Takahashi's edges made balance more difficult. But Chan's balance was amazing. That's why I gave Chan a check mark on this one but not Takahashi.
    It's really so difficult to set all these guys apart. I agree in giving Chan the cleaner, deeper edges.
    Dai's balance though seems great to me in that it can keep up with all the upper body movement he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline
    But the difference is difficult to quantify exactly, so I'd probably score them around the same, with Takahashi and Abbott (who really has great SS as well, but I think is very underrated in this aspect) very close behind, about a quarter point or so less.
    I also had a quarter in mind, maybe a half but that's too much again. It's funny cause we couldn't assign less than a quarter point difference between them.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Abbott was very good on SS. He and Kozuka have the same weakness, that is they both do not have enough power/evergy and acceleration. I see Abbott has the same deep edges and same soft knees as Kozuka's which are better than Takahashi's. Abbott's skating skills are as good as Kozuka's.
    Hmm, interesting again. I agree that Abbott has very nice, controlled deep edges but I think Takahashi has better soft, lilting knee action.

  3. #273
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    I love discussions like the latest posts here. All these analyses, explanations, and illustrations with real skating are refreshing, illuminating, and more convincing than all the personal opinions declared as absolute facts.

  4. #274
    Yeah! Lets get this party started. enlight78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I think in general, considering how they normally skate, Kozuka's SS is closer to Chan's than Takahashi's to Chan's only in rhythmic knee action and deep edges. But still Chan does better than Kozuka. The rest of Kozuka's are closer to Takahashi's. Takahashi's power/energy and acceleration is better than Kozuka's. Chan is generally has about 0.25 - 0.50 advantage over the second best in the world in this category. I won't mind at all if Chan receives 10s in SS on a perfect skating. I just don't see Kozuka as Chan's equal. Definitely not.

    Abbott was very good on SS. He and Kozuka have the same weakness, that is they both do not have enough power/evergy and acceleration. I see Abbott has the same deep edges and same soft knees as Kozuka's which are better than Takahashi's. Abbott's skating skills are as good as Kozuka's.
    ITA, I would like to add that Chan tends to be more active with his edges and his lower body while the other three tend to do more with upperbody, especially Takahashi. So after watching the skates I feel incline to give Chan a higher score since he provides a larger example of his skill to go by.

  5. #275
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    Just wanted to add that I love this discussion too - it's so informative!!!

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    Uhh....Pot...Kettle...Black...
    You can always ignore my posts, you know. I just learned there's that feature too.

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    What's a "bold" edge? BTW, I think it's fair to point out that for someone with such great edge control, Chan has had some awfully strange falls and bobbles on the non-jump parts of his programs.

    Having seen some of your posts about other skaters, I am inclined to agree with chloepoco's assessment.
    You will have to write Tracy Wilson to ask her what is "bold" edge.

    The ice is slippery, anything can happen and I'm sure Chan's not the only one that had some strange slip.

    We all have our bias, so do you. But I'd not go out and say that I can't watch so and so skater anymore and then come here and whine about how bad that skater was.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post


    Then watch these videos in mute mode (I think sound will interfere with your judgement). Ignore the upper body movements. Only focus on skater's feet. See what you think? (The reason I chose these two skatings is because they were one of the best skatings for each skater)

    Chan's 2011 World LP:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo4GjP8gDok

    Takahashi's 2011 NHK LP:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevEFHTCqeo
    This is really a great way to evaluate the skating itself, without distractions of music, interpretation and performance part. Unfortunately it also takes away Takahashi's strong suits. After watching Patrick's Worlds skate, which is not his best BTW (that would be the Nationals'), Takahashi's skating seems so much "smaller", much less in speed and scope. It almost seems slow and labored. So do his spins, which are much slower and uncentred in constrast to Chan's.

    With the music on, Daisuke draws you in with his whole body performance. Which is great but it also draws away from his weaker skills much more than I realized.

    I'm going to do the same with Takahashi's Worlds 2010 performances to find out what I will see, because those were his best or at least among his very best. I was totally impressed by his indisputable win. I would do the same with Kozuka's best too, i.e. Worlds 2011. And Patrick's SP and Aranjuez, or I may wait for his TEB performance, hopefully he has used up his season's quota of stumbling during jump entries.

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    First, the judges, Chan fans, commentators, medias, and especially and significantly the fact that non-Chan fans all marvel Chan's skating skills to the point that you'll believe he is the best ever in this skill under current system.

    Second, let's keep in mind the definition of skating skills:



    Then watch these videos in mute mode (I think sound will interfere with your judgement). Ignore the upper body movements. Only focus on skater's feet. See what you think? (The reason I chose these two skatings is because they were one of the best skatings for each skater)

    Chan's 2011 World LP:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo4GjP8gDok

    Takahashi's 2011 NHK LP:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevEFHTCqeo

    Let's check each criteria (I gave the edge to the skater with check marks):

    •Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔ Takahashi
    •Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi
    •Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔ Takahashi
    •Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔ Takahashi
    •Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔
    •Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔ Takahashi

    I didn't mean that Takahashi wasn't good at all those criteria without marks. He was great. I only meant that I felt Chan did better.
    Thanks for that Bluebonnet. But its still subjective. I think you also may be failing to take into account the fact that Dai's choreo calls for him to be off balance -- that's part of what makes this performance interesting and watchable. Dai definitely has "rhythmic knee action" which I think is better than Chan's, but I believe Chan's "precision of foot placement" is better. "Flow and effortless glide," definitely goes to Chan, but again, the nature of Dai's choreo complicates this analysis, as his movements, especially in this program are changing and moving in different directions constantly, so there is not a constant flow on purpose, and his movements and blade work don't seem forced or awkward in any way -- there is definitely an effortless quality in the way Dai launched into and out of his jumps (except for the failed quad). "Cleanness and sureness..." both are good, I too would give the edge to Chan. "Power, energy ..." Checks for both equally! I'd give Dai the edge for "master of multidirectional skating." I give both high marks for "mastery of one-foot skating," with a slight edge to Dai.

    And you know what, if you looked at ISU judges' scorecards, there would also be differing opinions, based on individual perception, and often also factored by politics.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I dunno, I think jettasian and Art&Sport structure their posts/arguments very similarly. Rather intersting.
    Yeah, I guess that makes us the "evil twins." And probably means our points of view upset you b/c they are not the same as yours.

    It's sport and it's debate and ever shall be. Sometimes comments that provoke can end up sparking constructive conversation, as in this instance. Take it all in, enjoy it, stick to your guns, agree to disagree, or become enlightened to maybe viewing things differently and enhancing your perceptions -- doesn't mean your opinions will necessarily change. I for one am glad the Internet is here to share discussion with other skating fans. Sometimes it gets heated, but let's not make it personal. Life is too short. Figure skating will always be about debate. I thank the skate gods for being able to watch and enjoy the skaters I love.

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    This is really a great way to evaluate the skating itself, without distractions of music, interpretation and performance part. Unfortunately it also takes away Takahashi's strong suits. After watching Patrick's Worlds skate, which is not his best BTW (that would be the Nationals'), Takahashi's skating seems so much "smaller", much less in speed and scope. It almost seems slow and labored. So do his spins, which are much slower and uncentred in constrast to Chan's.

    With the music on, Daisuke draws you in with his whole body performance. Which is great but it also draws away from his weaker skills much more than I realized.

    I'm going to do the same with Takahashi's Worlds 2010 performances to find out what I will see, because those were his best or at least among his very best. I was totally impressed by his indisputable win. I would do the same with Kozuka's best too, i.e. Worlds 2011. And Patrick's SP and Aranjuez, or I may wait for his TEB performance, hopefully he has used up his season's quota of stumbling during jump entries.
    I experienced it differently than you with the mute feature. Just looking at the blade work on mute, very obviously Chan excels with his edging and blade work. However, I found Chan's overall skating much weaker with no music playing. I think taking away the music actually highlights Chan's weaker presentation skills. Whereas watching Dai, I found his movements much more dynamic and appealing even without the music. As far as Dai's blade work, it is good, but not as excellent as Chan's. However, Dai is not bad in that aspect either, although obviously Dai does not excel at spinning, but he has improved over the years. I don't think Chan is a great spinner either.

    It's important to realize, however, that figure skating is meant to be skated with the music, and that is how it is judged, or should be. The judges do look at slo-mo clips without the music, but they are supposed to take the overall performance with the music into account in their scoring. Clearly, with or without the music, Dai is just a genius with upper body movement, and all over movement too, in addition to excelling at musicality, charisma, and artistic interpretation. Check out Chan's arm movements vs. Dai's (without the music, if you wish) -- huge difference!!! Right from his opening moves, Dai draws us in. Chan, not so much. IMHO, Chan's opening movements have more of a studied quality and less of a natural flow.

    Also the choreo will always be a factor in how the skaters are moving IMO. Checking out different programs on mute may or may not reveal anything new.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 11-17-2011 at 01:17 AM.

  12. #282
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    ^^^Bluebonnett's suggested viewing is to focus on the feet and blade work, ignoring the music as well as the upper body and arms. This is obviously not how the whole programs are judged but it does isolate the Skating Skills, and spins, which I find Chan's superiority surprisingly more than I thought.

  13. #283
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    OT: what pot kettle black means?

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    OT: what pot kettle black means?
    as in "the pot calling the kettle black." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_cal...e_kettle_black

  15. #285
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    ^thanx!
    We say this by the saying: The donkey calls the chicken big-head.

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