It's really so difficult to set all these guys apart.Originally Posted by Bluebonnet
I agree in giving Chan the cleaner, deeper edges.
Dai's balance though seems great to me in that it can keep up with all the upper body movement he does.
I also had a quarter in mind, maybe a half but that's too much again. It's funny cause we couldn't assign less than a quarter point difference between them.
Hmm, interesting again. I agree that Abbott has very nice, controlled deep edges but I think Takahashi has better soft, lilting knee action.
I love discussions like the latest posts here. All these analyses, explanations, and illustrations with real skating are refreshing, illuminating, and more convincing than all the personal opinions declared as absolute facts.
ITA, I would like to add that Chan tends to be more active with his edges and his lower body while the other three tend to do more with upperbody, especially Takahashi. So after watching the skates I feel incline to give Chan a higher score since he provides a larger example of his skill to go by.
Just wanted to add that I love this discussion too - it's so informative!!!
You can always ignore my posts, you know. I just learned there's that feature too.
You will have to write Tracy Wilson to ask her what is "bold" edge.
The ice is slippery, anything can happen and I'm sure Chan's not the only one that had some strange slip.
We all have our bias, so do you. But I'd not go out and say that I can't watch so and so skater anymore and then come here and whine about how bad that skater was.
This is really a great way to evaluate the skating itself, without distractions of music, interpretation and performance part. Unfortunately it also takes away Takahashi's strong suits. After watching Patrick's Worlds skate, which is not his best BTW (that would be the Nationals'), Takahashi's skating seems so much "smaller", much less in speed and scope. It almost seems slow and labored. So do his spins, which are much slower and uncentred in constrast to Chan's.
With the music on, Daisuke draws you in with his whole body performance. Which is great but it also draws away from his weaker skills much more than I realized.
I'm going to do the same with Takahashi's Worlds 2010 performances to find out what I will see, because those were his best or at least among his very best. I was totally impressed by his indisputable win. I would do the same with Kozuka's best too, i.e. Worlds 2011. And Patrick's SP and Aranjuez, or I may wait for his TEB performance, hopefully he has used up his season's quota of stumbling during jump entries.
Thanks for that Bluebonnet. But its still subjective. I think you also may be failing to take into account the fact that Dai's choreo calls for him to be off balance -- that's part of what makes this performance interesting and watchable. Dai definitely has "rhythmic knee action" which I think is better than Chan's, but I believe Chan's "precision of foot placement" is better. "Flow and effortless glide," definitely goes to Chan, but again, the nature of Dai's choreo complicates this analysis, as his movements, especially in this program are changing and moving in different directions constantly, so there is not a constant flow on purpose, and his movements and blade work don't seem forced or awkward in any way -- there is definitely an effortless quality in the way Dai launched into and out of his jumps (except for the failed quad). "Cleanness and sureness..." both are good, I too would give the edge to Chan. "Power, energy ..." Checks for both equally! I'd give Dai the edge for "master of multidirectional skating." I give both high marks for "mastery of one-foot skating," with a slight edge to Dai.
And you know what, if you looked at ISU judges' scorecards, there would also be differing opinions, based on individual perception, and often also factored by politics.
Yeah, I guess that makes us the "evil twins."And probably means our points of view upset you b/c they are not the same as yours.
It's sport and it's debate and ever shall be. Sometimes comments that provoke can end up sparking constructive conversation, as in this instance. Take it all in, enjoy it, stick to your guns, agree to disagree, or become enlightened to maybe viewing things differently and enhancing your perceptions -- doesn't mean your opinions will necessarily change. I for one am glad the Internet is here to share discussion with other skating fans. Sometimes it gets heated, but let's not make it personal. Life is too short. Figure skating will always be about debate. I thank the skate gods for being able to watch and enjoy the skaters I love.
I experienced it differently than you with the mute feature. Just looking at the blade work on mute, very obviously Chan excels with his edging and blade work. However, I found Chan's overall skating much weaker with no music playing. I think taking away the music actually highlights Chan's weaker presentation skills. Whereas watching Dai, I found his movements much more dynamic and appealing even without the music. As far as Dai's blade work, it is good, but not as excellent as Chan's. However, Dai is not bad in that aspect either, although obviously Dai does not excel at spinning, but he has improved over the years. I don't think Chan is a great spinner either.
It's important to realize, however, that figure skating is meant to be skated with the music, and that is how it is judged, or should be. The judges do look at slo-mo clips without the music, but they are supposed to take the overall performance with the music into account in their scoring. Clearly, with or without the music, Dai is just a genius with upper body movement, and all over movement too, in addition to excelling at musicality, charisma, and artistic interpretation. Check out Chan's arm movements vs. Dai's (without the music, if you wish) -- huge difference!!! Right from his opening moves, Dai draws us in. Chan, not so much. IMHO, Chan's opening movements have more of a studied quality and less of a natural flow.
Also the choreo will always be a factor in how the skaters are moving IMO. Checking out different programs on mute may or may not reveal anything new.
Last edited by Art&Sport; 11-17-2011 at 01:17 AM.
^^^Bluebonnett's suggested viewing is to focus on the feet and blade work, ignoring the music as well as the upper body and arms. This is obviously not how the whole programs are judged but it does isolate the Skating Skills, and spins, which I find Chan's superiority surprisingly more than I thought.
OT: what pot kettle black means?
as in "the pot calling the kettle black." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_cal...e_kettle_black
^
We say this by the saying: The donkey calls the chicken big-head.
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