Men's Free Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 10:55 pm EST

[periperi]

Taka's edge quality is just as good as Patrick's. In the past his programs haven't been quite as difficult, but his knees and control of the blade are just as good. I haven't seen Taka live so I I can't say for sure, but I think he's a tad slower than Patrick and he can't change direction quite as quickly. Otherwise I'd say he's pretty much Patrick's equal in SS and they are defiantly the two strongest skaters currently competing.
The sound of the edge has a lot to do with what kind of step or turn you're doing as well and the amount of force you're placing on the edge. A scratchy edge is always bad as you're too far forward on the blade and the toe picks are being used. This slows you down as well and sounding horrible and wrecking the ice. A deep edge can be silent if the edge is just being held, but if you try to work off the edge, that is push off the edge a solid one can make a grinding sound. The quieter the better, however, as the grinding sound comes from digging in and working against the ice and usually means there is a lack of speed on the skaters part and it can slow you down if you're going fast.

I've never seen Taka in person either (unfortunately), but I have had people who have seen both live tell me that Patrick is definitely the faster skater.

Overall from what I gathered, quiet edging and edging that produces a grinding sound can both come about because of deep, quality edges, but the person with the quietest edges is the one who is lightest on their feet. Thanks for your comment.

There are certain types of skills that a "ripping sound" is admired such as a cross stroke (different from a crossover) or power pull. In the US test structure, the MIF are done in a silent rink and judges note the "rip" of the edge on cross strokes and power pulls at every level that has these skills integrated (basically, from Prejuvenile all the way to Senior). Without that rip, those skills would come to a grinding halt. It's expected that if these are integrated into the FS program that they should also have that rip if you are near enough to hear it. Each turn also has it's own "sound".

That's really interesting. To be honest, I didn't even know what a cross stroke was when I read your comment (I do now thanks to Suricati on youtube). I'll keep your comment in mind the next time I see any skater in person.

Comparison: (I gave double check marks I think was the best of them all. One check mark for the better one.)

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka✔
•Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka✔
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔✔ Takahashi Kozuka✔
•Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka
•Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔✔ Kozuka
•Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔✔ Takahashi Kozuka

Thanks for giving me your two cents! I do have to agree with evangeline, particularly on point 1, that I'd have Taka much closer if not right up there with Patrick though.

I also have to thank you for the suggestion of watching without music while focusing on the feet. One thing that always bothered me about Ryan, but that stands out even more when I do this, is how the guy barely bends his knees! On top of his flat edges, it's no wonder he is so slow.

[Bluebonnet]

But its still subjective.

I can't deny it. If relying on human eyes and human mind to make decision without equipment to measure, there is no way to eliminate the subjectivity. However, under this kind of isolated close observation, the subjectivity is restrained into minimum, no more impact than GOE's impact on TES.

Dai definitely has "rhythmic knee action" which I think is better than Chan's,......"Power, energy ..." Checks for both equally!

What is "rhythmic knee action"? Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought it is the harmony between body, knees, feet, and blades. The knees stretch and bend as softly as possible to absorb the impact of the body. One up and down of the knee bending is like a phrase in the music. The knee movement shaped like a fish with a small head, big body, and small tail. I thought Chan's knee movements are just like the phrases in the music. Very legato. I thought Takahashi's knee movements are sometimes legato, sometimes irregular, sometimes staccato. Stiff might be too strong a word but I can't think of any milder word at the moment. I'm convinced that Chan is way better than Takahashi on this account unless I misunderstood the meaning of it.

"Power and Energy" is another one that I think Chan definitely does better than Takahashi. Again please correct me if I'm wrong. I thought it means the distance and speed of a push when stroke. I thought Chan's strokes are very efficient and powerful. He travels faster than Takahashi with fewer strokes.

[carignan]

What I can agree whole heartedly to is that both Takahashi and Chan are fabulous skaters and we are lucky that they are both currently competing and spurring each other on.

Thank you for understanding what I wanted to say.
Yes, Patrick has the deepest edges and glides most powerfully. I love it. However, at this level of figure skating, there are things which Patrick can do but Daisuke can't, and vice versa, I think. So what I can say is they are amazingly superb!

Can I say one more thing? Please don't watch Daisuke's performances without music so much. Because one of the very important things for him is to sync with the music, even every note of the music.

[prettykeys]

I don't agree that Takahashi's 'standard of skating skills' looks weak, whether it's compared to Chan's or not. They both have equally great skating skills.

Umm...how do Takahashi and Chan "both have equally great skating skills"? Maybe in Candyland where there are unicorns and rainbows and everyone gets the same PCS in every section and everyone is equally loved, but comments like this don't really add much to the discussion here. I don't really know why the focus has turned to just this one aspect of the judging, but at least most who are arguing that Chan has stronger skating skills are justifying their opinions. Vague, unexplained statements to the contrary are just as dogmatic as blind fanaticism. And I happen to agree with those who say Chan's SS are stronger than Takahashi's...

"Power and Energy" is another one that I think Chan definitely does better than Takahashi. Again please correct me if I'm wrong. I thought it means the distance and speed of a push when stroke. I thought Chan's strokes are very efficient and powerful. He travels faster than Takahashi with fewer strokes.

This cannot be denied. There is more ease and efficiency to Chan's stroking, and he is faster and more powerful. The degree of difference to the nuances of skating skills can be debated, but in the ranking at least in this dimension Chan is stronger than Takahashi.

Upthread, though, SkatingFiguring did mention this comparison of SS in the context outside of "whole body interpretation". I thought that was very interesting. From the ankles or knees and lower, Chan's SS are top-notch, but I can't help but notice that something about his overall body when skating is still ever so slightly awkward. I can't pinpoint or specify what makes my impression so...it's like his hips don't quite line up with his shoulders most of the time so while his lower body is doing all these deep angles and edges (perhaps consciously?), his upper body looks somewhat stiff, too upright...or something like that. On the other hand, Takahashi's general body carriage looks more natural and "supple". (For reference, I also watched some Kurt Browning clips and he isn't so stiff in the upper body either...he looks like a blend of Takahashi and Chan to me.) I don't know if there is a specific bullet point or figure skating criterion that reflects this, but I guess what I am trying to say is that while Chan's skating skills are impressive, it's Takahashi who looks like he is a fish in water. Not criticizing either or wanting to know how the scoring stacks up in this light, but this is just my impression while watching them. As others have stated, both have great skating skills, the difference not really worth being the major factor in differentiating them, IMO.

Can I say one more thing? Please don't watch Daisuke's performances without music so much. Because one of the very important things for him is to sync with the music, even every note of the music.

So true.

[Bluebonnet]

I agree that this watching without music got to be reduced. Or it'll convert many more people into Chan fans.

[evangeline]

Upthread, though, SkatingFiguring did mention this comparison of SS in the context outside of "whole body interpretation". I thought that was very interesting. From the ankles or knees and lower, Chan's SS are top-notch, but I can't help but notice that something about his overall body when skating is still ever so slightly awkward. I can't pinpoint or specify what makes my impression so...it's like his hips don't quite line up with his shoulders most of the time so while his lower body is doing all these deep angles and edges (perhaps consciously?), his upper body looks somewhat stiff, too upright...or something like that. On the other hand, Takahashi's general body carriage looks more natural and "supple". (For reference, I also watched some Kurt Browning clips and he isn't so stiff in the upper body either...he looks like a blend of Takahashi and Chan to me.) I don't know if there is a specific bullet point or figure skating criterion that reflects this, but I guess what I am trying to say is that while Chan's skating skills are impressive, it's Takahashi who looks like he is a fish in water. Not criticizing either or wanting to know how the scoring stacks up in this light, but this is just my impression while watching them. As others have stated, both have great skating skills, the difference not really worth being the major factor in differentiating them, IMO.

I agree. These factors are actually addressed under Performance/Execution in PCS:

Carriage
Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the next.

Style and individuality/personality
Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music.
Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a
skater/pair/couple brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.

Clarity of movement
Clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise
execution of any movement.

Right after the men's event at the Olympics, a writer in one of my favourite magazines wrote an article about the medalists, the controversy, etc. In this article, she compared Evan Lysacek and Daisuke, but in my opinion, the comparison is actually quite apt between Patrick and Daisuke as well. Patrick dominates the ice--with his deep edges carving into the ice, he flies across it with great power and speed. However, Daisuke seduces the ice instead

[SkateFiguring]

I think that Chan's straight back in Aranjuez is a posture on purpose as an interpretation of the Spanish music. However, I've long noticed Takahashi uses his head a lot (literally ) while Chan hardly does. In that way, Takahashi is much like, as he has probably learned from, Lambiel, who choreographed Amélie for him. He also touches himself a lot more in his choreography, weaving about his body with his arms and hands

Also, Daisuke has that soulful look down pat. It's something special about his face.

[prettykeys]

I agree. These factors are actually addressed under Performance/Execution in PCS:

Carriage
Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the next.

Style and individuality/personality
Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music.
Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a
skater/pair/couple brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.

Clarity of movement
Clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise
execution of any movement.

Thanks! I didn't realize Carriage was under P/E. And really, Patrick's no slouch () in this department either, but you know Daisuke...

Right after the men's event at the Olympics, a writer in one of my favourite magazines wrote an article about the medalists, the controversy, etc. In this article, she compared Evan Lysacek and Daisuke, but in my opinion, the comparison is actually quite apt between Patrick and Daisuke as well. Patrick dominates the ice--with his deep edges carving into the ice, he flies across it with great power and speed. However, Daisuke seduces the ice instead

Is there possibly an online transcript of that article? I'm curious to read that. Although the idea of Evan having "deep edges" vis-a-vis Patrick...

[evangeline]

Is there possibly an online transcript of that article? I'm curious to read that. Although the idea of Evan having "deep edges" vis-a-vis Patrick...

I will try to find the article online, but if I recall correctly, the author wasn't necessarily referring to Evan's skating skills but more like the way he powered through his skate (e.g. that trademark straightline step sequence): not the most graceful skater, but...very, er, powerful. Dominating. I re-contextualized her words somewhat mostly because I couldn't resist the image of Daisuke seducing the ice but the sentiment is the same.

[fscric]

not the most graceful skater, but...very, er, powerful. Dominating.

Ah, so that's what Patrick is, thanks for the clarification.

[prettykeys]

I will try to find the article online, but if I recall correctly, the author wasn't necessarily referring to Evan's skating skills but more like the way he powered through his skate (e.g. that trademark straightline step sequence): not the most graceful skater, but...very, er, powerful. Dominating. I re-contextualized her words somewhat mostly because I couldn't resist the image of Daisuke seducing the ice but the sentiment is the same.

lol, yeah. I got the gist of it from your description. Don't spend too much time searching for the article online, I was just curious about how the writer structured her opinion and the points she used. Evan did have a grand appearance on the ice.

I think that Chan's straight back in Aranjuez is a posture on purpose as an interpretation of the Spanish music. However, I've long noticed Takahashi uses his head a lot (literally ) while Chan hardly does. In that way, Takahashi is much like, as he has probably learned from, Lambiel, who choreographed Amélie for him. He also touches himself a lot more in his choreography, weaving about his body with his arms and hands

Also, Daisuke has that soulful look down pat. It's something special about his face.

Regarding the use of the head, physically--I agree with that, SkateFiguring. I noticed that difference too and I forgot to mention it, and it seems like such a minor thing but I am sure if/when Patrick learns to use his whole body a little better it would have a big impact. And I'm not just nitpicking; even my favourite lady, YuNa, could be somewhat awkward at times on the ice, too, and she didn't quite use her head, face, and eyes as effectively as Michelle could. It seems like a small skill, but somehow it does affect the entire performance. Doesn't stop me from loving her.

[chloepoco]

Umm...how do Takahashi and Chan "both have equally great skating skills"? Maybe in Candyland where there are unicorns and rainbows and everyone gets the same PCS in every section and everyone is equally loved, but comments like this don't really add much to the discussion here. I don't really know why the focus has turned to just this one aspect of the judging, but at least most who are arguing that Chan has stronger skating skills are justifying their opinions. Vague, unexplained statements to the contrary are just as dogmatic as blind fanaticism. And I happen to agree with those who say Chan's SS are stronger than Takahashi's...

I believe they both have great skating skills; neither is better than the other, in my opinion. And I mean, really, you don't need to get so snippy about it. And don't bother replying. End of subject, as far as I'm concerned.

[evangeline]

Ah, so that's what Patrick is, thanks for the clarification.

Well, he certainly dominated the men at Moscow Worlds. In fact, I could almost hear him cracking his whip, especially after his short program

[prettykeys]

Oops, now where are my manners? Kumbayaaaa, my Looord... everyone's equal and great. End of discussion!

[Tonichelle]

I will try to find the article online, but if I recall correctly, the author wasn't necessarily referring to Evan's skating skills but more like the way he powered through his skate (e.g. that trademark straightline step sequence): not the most graceful skater, but...very, er, powerful. Dominating. I re-contextualized her words somewhat mostly because I couldn't resist the image of Daisuke seducing the ice but the sentiment is the same.

Evan definitely ATTACKS the ice when he skates... he has power and is a little... vengeful (maybe?) of the ice lol he definitely commands it.