Men's Free Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 10:55 pm EST | Page 14 | Golden Skate

Men's Free Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 10:55 pm EST

havefun

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
What is most interesting to me in the comparison of these videos is the similarities in their body proportions and angles. These guys have happy feet. It is easy for them. Dai is showcasing it better this year than previously and likely has done his homework as to how to increase those PCS. They are both in the right sport for their physical strengths.

Abbott has amazing long deep edges. He has longer legs and different body angles. He too has chosen programs this year that highlight his strengths. Particularly his lp.

The other skater I think who has come to understand their strengths and optimize them is Alissa Czisny.

It seems once skaters get to this point of understanding and maturity, their performances are enhanced by their joy and freedom to skate to their strengths.

Patrick has been great for the sport. He has proven that the pcs is as important as tech and has pushed himself technically as well. He has challenged his competitors and some have risen to the challenge. It is a win win for all.


BTW Abbott will score high points for especially his long program. He is showcasing gis strengths beautifully in his lp.
 

EricRohmer

On the Ice
Joined
May 31, 2010
Patrick has been great for the sport. He has proven that the pcs is as important as tech and has pushed himself technically as well. He has challenged his competitors and some have risen to the challenge. It is a win win for all.

yes! :agree::thumbsup:


BTW Abbott will score high points for especially his long program. He is showcasing gis strengths beautifully in his lp.

yes! :love:
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I see Daisuke being equal on some more bullet points, mainly point one, on which I could even see him slightly ahead.

I've weighed back and forth several times on the point one "Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement". I thought Takahashi's "precision of foot placement" was as good as Chan's. In Takahashi's program, he used more of this skill than Chan in his. But "Chan's rhythmic knee astion" was much prettier than Takahashi's. Also, I think Chan's deeper than Takahashi's edges made balance more difficult. But Chan's balance was amazing. That's why I gave Chan a check mark on this one but not Takahashi.

I wonder whether I should be making a new thread for my second question especially.

Please do! I'm not an expert. But I'd love to join the discussion and learn more on the subject.

It seems once skaters get to this point of understanding and maturity, their performances are enhanced by their joy and freedom to skate to their strengths.

True! The better skating skills, the more freedom and power they possess to transfer what they want to express in their mind into reality of what they can express on ice.
 

silver.blades

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Country
Canada
Could the experts on this forum tell me how Takahiko's skating skills compare to Patrick's now that we're on the subject? Who has the better knees, stroking, edging and so forth? I can tell that they're both very efficient as they consistently make the difficult look ridiculously easy, they have plenty of flow coming out of pretty much everything they do, and they have that lean of the body that Dick Button would always say to look out for in skaters with deep edging. I don't think I'm expert enough to determine who is better though, although I've always had the impression that Takahiko has more supple knees.

Another thing I'm interested in is how the edges sound. I've heard consistently that edges that sound scratchy are not quality edges, but that edges that make more of a growling sound is what is ideal. What about how quiet the edges are? One thing that I've always noted when I read or hear accounts of those who have seen Taka in a competition or show, is how consistently it's mentioned by people that Taka's blades on the ice are so hard to hear in comparison to everyone else's. During the NHK Trophy, Terry Gannon mentioned that he couldn't even hear Taka's blades on the ice unless he was landing a jump, and Peter Carruthers noted that no other skater in the world is as quiet as he is in terms of that. What does that say about Taka's edging quality? Do quieter edges mean better edges or just that the skater is particularly light on his feet? I've always been curious. :)

I wonder whether I should be making a new thread for my second question especially.

Taka's edge quality is just as good as Patrick's. In the past his programs haven't been quite as difficult, but his knees and control of the blade are just as good. I haven't seen Taka live so I I can't say for sure, but I think he's a tad slower than Patrick and he can't change direction quite as quickly. Otherwise I'd say he's pretty much Patrick's equal in SS and they are defiantly the two strongest skaters currently competing.
The sound of the edge has a lot to do with what kind of step or turn you're doing as well and the amount of force you're placing on the edge. A scratchy edge is always bad as you're too far forward on the blade and the toe picks are being used. This slows you down as well and sounding horrible and wrecking the ice. A deep edge can be silent if the edge is just being held, but if you try to work off the edge, that is push off the edge a solid one can make a grinding sound. The quieter the better, however, as the grinding sound comes from digging in and working against the ice and usually means there is a lack of speed on the skaters part and it can slow you down if you're going fast.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
There are certain types of skills that a "ripping sound" is admired such as a cross stroke (different from a crossover) or power pull. In the US test structure, the MIF are done in a silent rink and judges note the "rip" of the edge on cross strokes and power pulls at every level that has these skills integrated (basically, from Prejuvenile all the way to Senior). Without that rip, those skills would come to a grinding halt. It's expected that if these are integrated into the FS program that they should also have that rip if you are near enough to hear it. Each turn also has it's own "sound".
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I have heard so many expert commentators marveling at the sound of Chan's skating and there was a report of a practice with only Chan and Kozuka on ice, and the wonderful sounds of their skates silenced the arena.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Could the experts on this forum tell me how Takahiko's skating skills compare to Patrick's now that we're on the subject? Who has the better knees, stroking, edging and so forth?

I am definitely not an expert. But I love this topic. So here is my two cents:

Same method as I did for Chan and Takahashi comparison. Watch the videos in mute. This time I use their programs on this GP circuit (Keep in mind that Chan's SC LP wasn't close to his best, neither was Kozuka's. But Takahashi's NHK LP was one of his best.)

Chan's SC 2011 LP: (Look at 1'58'', the balance and deep edge were insane!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlJijSgjdWM

Takahashi's NHK 2011 LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevEFHTCqeo

Kozuka's NHK 2011 LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwR6LFXn2Co

Comparison: (I gave double check marks I think was the best of them all. One check mark for the better one.)

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka✔
•Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka✔
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔✔ Takahashi Kozuka✔
•Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka
•Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔✔ Kozuka
•Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔✔ Takahashi Kozuka

After the comparison of these three top skaters, I actually appreciate Chan's skating even more than before.:)
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
The judges at NHK actually gave Daisuke higher skating skills than Patrick's SP from 2011 Worlds (8.79 versus 8.46). But Patrick got higher skating skills in his 2011 Worlds LP than Daisuke got in the LP here (9.25 versus 8.96). It's just about one notch's difference either way.

Personally (not that I'm an expert on this), I'd give Patrick around a .25 point edge over Daisuke in skating skills in general; he seems to have a little more power in his stroking. 9.25 sounds just about right for Patrick.

Edit: Here are the protocols for quick reference:
NHK SP: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2011/gpjpn2011_Men_SP_Scores.pdf
NHK LP: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2011/gpjpn2011_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
Worlds 2011 SP: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/wc2011_Men_SP_Scores.pdf
Worlds 2011 LP: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/wc2011_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Comparison: (I gave double check marks I think was the best of them all. One check mark for the better one.)

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka✔
•Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka✔
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔✔ Takahashi Kozuka✔
•Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔✔ Takahashi✔ Kozuka
•Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔✔ Kozuka
•Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔✔ Takahashi Kozuka

Interesting. Like Kunstrijdster, I didn't specifically use the above programs for reference (I think the better method is to evaluate multiple programs and performances), but I would rank Kozuka closer to Chan on points 1 and 3, definitely. Like silver.blades, in my opinion, Kozuka is basically Chan's equal in SS, though I would argue that Chan is superior in power/energy and acceleration. But the difference is difficult to quantify exactly, so I'd probably score them around the same, with Takahashi and Abbott (who really has great SS as well, but I think is very underrated in this aspect) very close behind, about a quarter point or so less.
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I think in general, considering how they normally skate, Kozuka's SS is closer to Chan's than Takahashi's to Chan's only in rhythmic knee action and deep edges. But still Chan does better than Kozuka. The rest of Kozuka's are closer to Takahashi's. Takahashi's power/energy and acceleration is better than Kozuka's. Chan is generally has about 0.25 - 0.50 advantage over the second best in the world in this category. I won't mind at all if Chan receives 10s in SS on a perfect skating. I just don't see Kozuka as Chan's equal. Definitely not.

Abbott was very good on SS. He and Kozuka have the same weakness, that is they both do not have enough power/energy and acceleration. I see Abbott has the same deep edges and same soft knees as Kozuka's which are better than Takahashi's. Abbott's skating skills are as good as Kozuka's.
 
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Kunstrijdster

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
I've weighed back and forth several times on the point one "Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement". I thought Takahashi's "precision of foot placement" was as good as Chan's. In Takahashi's program, he used more of this skill than Chan in his. But "Chan's rhythmic knee astion" was much prettier than Takahashi's. Also, I think Chan's deeper than Takahashi's edges made balance more difficult. But Chan's balance was amazing. That's why I gave Chan a check mark on this one but not Takahashi.

It's really so difficult to set all these guys apart. :) I agree in giving Chan the cleaner, deeper edges.
Dai's balance though seems great to me in that it can keep up with all the upper body movement he does.

evangeline said:
But the difference is difficult to quantify exactly, so I'd probably score them around the same, with Takahashi and Abbott (who really has great SS as well, but I think is very underrated in this aspect) very close behind, about a quarter point or so less.

I also had a quarter in mind, maybe a half but that's too much again. It's funny cause we couldn't assign less than a quarter point difference between them.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Abbott was very good on SS. He and Kozuka have the same weakness, that is they both do not have enough power/evergy and acceleration. I see Abbott has the same deep edges and same soft knees as Kozuka's which are better than Takahashi's. Abbott's skating skills are as good as Kozuka's.

Hmm, interesting again. I agree that Abbott has very nice, controlled deep edges but I think Takahashi has better soft, lilting knee action.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I love discussions like the latest posts here. All these analyses, explanations, and illustrations with real skating are refreshing, illuminating, and more convincing than all the personal opinions declared as absolute facts.
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
I think in general, considering how they normally skate, Kozuka's SS is closer to Chan's than Takahashi's to Chan's only in rhythmic knee action and deep edges. But still Chan does better than Kozuka. The rest of Kozuka's are closer to Takahashi's. Takahashi's power/energy and acceleration is better than Kozuka's. Chan is generally has about 0.25 - 0.50 advantage over the second best in the world in this category. I won't mind at all if Chan receives 10s in SS on a perfect skating. I just don't see Kozuka as Chan's equal. Definitely not.

Abbott was very good on SS. He and Kozuka have the same weakness, that is they both do not have enough power/evergy and acceleration. I see Abbott has the same deep edges and same soft knees as Kozuka's which are better than Takahashi's. Abbott's skating skills are as good as Kozuka's.

ITA, I would like to add that Chan tends to be more active with his edges and his lower body while the other three tend to do more with upperbody, especially Takahashi. So after watching the skates I feel incline to give Chan a higher score since he provides a larger example of his skill to go by.
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Just wanted to add that I love this discussion too - it's so informative!!!
 

jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
What's a "bold" edge? BTW, I think it's fair to point out that for someone with such great edge control, Chan has had some awfully strange falls and bobbles on the non-jump parts of his programs.

Having seen some of your posts about other skaters, I am inclined to agree with chloepoco's assessment.

You will have to write Tracy Wilson to ask her what is "bold" edge.

The ice is slippery, anything can happen and I'm sure Chan's not the only one that had some strange slip.

We all have our bias, so do you. But I'd not go out and say that I can't watch so and so skater anymore and then come here and whine about how bad that skater was.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Then watch these videos in mute mode (I think sound will interfere with your judgement). Ignore the upper body movements. Only focus on skater's feet. See what you think? (The reason I chose these two skatings is because they were one of the best skatings for each skater)

Chan's 2011 World LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo4GjP8gDok

Takahashi's 2011 NHK LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevEFHTCqeo

This is really a great way to evaluate the skating itself, without distractions of music, interpretation and performance part. Unfortunately it also takes away Takahashi's strong suits. After watching Patrick's Worlds skate, which is not his best BTW (that would be the Nationals'), Takahashi's skating seems so much "smaller", much less in speed and scope. It almost seems slow and labored. So do his spins, which are much slower and uncentred in constrast to Chan's.

With the music on, Daisuke draws you in with his whole body performance. Which is great but it also draws away from his weaker skills much more than I realized.

I'm going to do the same with Takahashi's Worlds 2010 performances to find out what I will see, because those were his best or at least among his very best. I was totally impressed by his indisputable win. I would do the same with Kozuka's best too, i.e. Worlds 2011. And Patrick's SP and Aranjuez, or I may wait for his TEB performance, hopefully he has used up his season's quota of stumbling during jump entries.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
First, the judges, Chan fans, commentators, medias, and especially and significantly the fact that non-Chan fans all marvel Chan's skating skills to the point that you'll believe he is the best ever in this skill under current system.

Second, let's keep in mind the definition of skating skills:



Then watch these videos in mute mode (I think sound will interfere with your judgement). Ignore the upper body movements. Only focus on skater's feet. See what you think? (The reason I chose these two skatings is because they were one of the best skatings for each skater)

Chan's 2011 World LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo4GjP8gDok

Takahashi's 2011 NHK LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevEFHTCqeo

Let's check each criteria (I gave the edge to the skater with check marks):

•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Flow and effortless glide Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Power/energy and acceleration Chan ✔ Takahashi
•Mastery of multi-directional skating Chan ✔ Takahashi ✔
•Mastery of one-foot skating Chan ✔ Takahashi

I didn't mean that Takahashi wasn't good at all those criteria without marks. He was great. I only meant that I felt Chan did better.

Thanks for that Bluebonnet. But its still subjective. I think you also may be failing to take into account the fact that Dai's choreo calls for him to be off balance -- that's part of what makes this performance interesting and watchable. Dai definitely has "rhythmic knee action" which I think is better than Chan's, but I believe Chan's "precision of foot placement" is better. "Flow and effortless glide," definitely goes to Chan, but again, the nature of Dai's choreo complicates this analysis, as his movements, especially in this program are changing and moving in different directions constantly, so there is not a constant flow on purpose, and his movements and blade work don't seem forced or awkward in any way -- there is definitely an effortless quality in the way Dai launched into and out of his jumps (except for the failed quad). "Cleanness and sureness..." both are good, I too would give the edge to Chan. "Power, energy ..." Checks for both equally! I'd give Dai the edge for "master of multidirectional skating." I give both high marks for "mastery of one-foot skating," with a slight edge to Dai.

And you know what, if you looked at ISU judges' scorecards, there would also be differing opinions, based on individual perception, and often also factored by politics.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
I dunno, I think jettasian and Art&Sport structure their posts/arguments very similarly. Rather intersting.

Yeah, I guess that makes us the "evil twins." :laugh: And probably means our points of view upset you b/c they are not the same as yours.

It's sport and it's debate and ever shall be. Sometimes comments that provoke can end up sparking constructive conversation, as in this instance. Take it all in, enjoy it, stick to your guns, agree to disagree, or become enlightened to maybe viewing things differently and enhancing your perceptions -- doesn't mean your opinions will necessarily change. I for one am glad the Internet is here to share discussion with other skating fans. Sometimes it gets heated, but let's not make it personal. Life is too short. Figure skating will always be about debate. I thank the skate gods for being able to watch and enjoy the skaters I love.
 
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