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Thread: Men's Free Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 10:55 pm EST

  1. #286
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    oh, i like that! it's so much more fanciful! :D

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    ^^^Bluebonnett's suggested viewing is to focus on the feet and blade work, ignoring the music as well as the upper body and arms. This is obviously not how the whole programs are judged but it does isolate the Skating Skills, and spins, which I find Chan's superiority surprisingly more than I thought.
    Yes, I viewed both programs on mute looking just at the blade work, and then again on mute looking at their entire bodies. I come to the conclusions I mentioned in my previous post. Obviously, the best way to examine only the blade work is to have isolated close-ups on just the feet -- that would be a better view, but I don't think there is any question that Chan has above average skills with his blades and edging and ice coverage. As far as the other outlined skills, my opinions are as I mentioned. There is not a huge difference between them in each outlined category -- Dai edges in some categories, Chan in others, and they are equal in a few as well. But above all, the difference between Chan and Dai in presentation and artistry is very striking, especially so without the music. Dai is clearly more masterful in those areas, which I think makes him a more complete skater than Chan. I think this is an interesting exercise, and a good discussion.

    We happen to come to different conclusions overall, and I'm sure everyone will have slightly different perceptions. Some will say, "Oh you already didn't like Chan on artistry." However, it is amazing to me how much Chan's weakness in artistry becomes even more obvious without the music. Chan's use and positioning of his arms, especially, is not very good (not aesthetically pleasing).
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 11-17-2011 at 05:44 AM.

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    This is really a great way to evaluate the skating itself, without distractions of music, interpretation and performance part. Unfortunately it also takes away Takahashi's strong suits. After watching Patrick's Worlds skate, which is not his best BTW (that would be the Nationals'), Takahashi's skating seems so much "smaller", much less in speed and scope. It almost seems slow and labored. So do his spins, which are much slower and uncentred in constrast to Chan's.

    With the music on, Daisuke draws you in with his whole body performance. Which is great but it also draws away from his weaker skills much more than I realized.
    Music on or music off, I really don't see how anyone can describe Daisuke's skating as 'slow and laboured.' Not even with an 'almost seems' attached to the front. Not even compared to Patrick Chan.

    I think one should keep in mind that the significant differences in choreography and style of movement (yes, even when just watching their feet) between the two men may affect one's perception of their skating skills.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Music on or music off, I really don't see how anyone can describe Daisuke's skating as 'slow and laboured.' Not even with an 'almost seems' attached to the front. Not even compared to Patrick Chan.

    I think one should keep in mind that the significant differences in choreography and style of movement (yes, even when just watching their feet) between the two men may affect one's perception of their skating skills.
    This!

  5. #290
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    Chan's 2011 World LP vs Takahashi's 2011 NHK LP, Patrick skated it for two years while Daisuke has skated it for just a few months.

    I don't know why people want to determine who is better. They are different and both of them are truly fabulous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carignan View Post
    Chan's 2011 World LP vs Takahashi's 2011 NHK LP, Patrick skated it for two years while Daisuke has skated it for just a few months.

    I don't know why people want to determine who is better. They are different and both of them are truly fabulous.
    I also watched Chan's Aranjuez, less practiced than Takahashi's KFB and the observation is the same. I figure it's about the basic standard of skating skills and Takahashi's looks weak only because it is compared to Chan's and when the interpretation and whole body performance are taken out of the picture. I am sure outside of the very few top tier skaters, his skating skills will make others seem slow and laboured.

    I can't agree to comparison of musicality and interpretation without music even if one watches the total movements, unless there is a huge gap like between those of entirely different levels. These are subjective enough as it is and even differ between performances by the same skater.

    What I can agree whole heartedly to is that both Takahashi and Chan are fabulous skaters and we are lucky that they are both currently competing and spurring each other on.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    We say this by the saying: The donkey calls the chicken big-head.
    We say this in the ice ring: The French calls the Canadian "quadless boy".

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Yeah, I guess that makes us the "evil twins." And probably means our points of view upset you b/c they are not the same as yours.

    It's sport and it's debate and ever shall be. Sometimes comments that provoke can end up sparking constructive conversation, as in this instance. Take it all in, enjoy it, stick to your guns, agree to disagree, or become enlightened to maybe viewing things differently and enhancing your perceptions -- doesn't mean your opinions will necessarily change. I for one am glad the Internet is here to share discussion with other skating fans. Sometimes it gets heated, but let's not make it personal. Life is too short. Figure skating will always be about debate. I thank the skate gods for being able to watch and enjoy the skaters I love.
    I responded via pm.

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I also watched Chan's Aranjuez, less practiced than Takahashi's KFB and the observation is the same. I figure it's about the basic standard of skating skills and Takahashi's looks weak only because it is compared to Chan's and when the interpretation and whole body performance are taken out of the picture. I am sure outside of the very few top tier skaters, his skating skills will make others seem slow and laboured.

    I can't agree to comparison of musicality and interpretation without music even if one watches the total movements, unless there is a huge gap like between those of entirely different levels. These are subjective enough as it is and even differ between performances by the same skater.

    What I can agree whole heartedly to is that both Takahashi and Chan are fabulous skaters and we are lucky that they are both currently competing and spurring each other on.
    I don't agree that Takahashi's 'standard of skating skills' looks weak, whether it's compared to Chan's or not. They both have equally great skating skills.

  10. #295
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    If, say, Chan has a 10 in SS you can't say that someone with supposed, a 9 in SS like Takahashi is weak and/or lacking in that area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burntBREAD View Post
    If, say, Chan has a 10 in SS you can't say that someone with supposed, a 9 in SS like Takahashi is weak and/or lacking in that area.
    I never said Takahashi is weak or lacking, just that in direct comparison of skating skills in isolation, it surprisingly almost seems so, specifically in speed and scope as I stated because Chan skates so huge, sweeping the whole ice surface so fast and smoothly with just a lean or other invisible moves. He just generates speed from nothing, as it's often described. His complex manuevers are done with speed as well, which is extremely difficult. Takahashi's footwork seems fast with all his arms and body moves but not so when only his feet are viewed. This is nitpiking among the best who will render others very weak indeed when scrutinized the same way. The likes of KVDP and Bradley would be unwatchable when viewed with the same critical eye.

    BTW, I'm glad to see that Aranjuez's last step sequence is choreographed with very different emphasis from POTO's which was choreographed before the sequence became non leveled to encourage expression with few constraints. All the turns and quick motions in POTO were retained because they went with the passionate and climatic ending of the program. Aranjuez final sequence is not designed with lots of moves for levels but is more sweeping and grand in accordance with the music. Chan's amazing skills are still showcased but differently.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 11-17-2011 at 12:56 PM.

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Music on or music off, I really don't see how anyone can describe Daisuke's skating as 'slow and laboured.' Not even with an 'almost seems' attached to the front. Not even compared to Patrick Chan.

    I think one should keep in mind that the significant differences in choreography and style of movement (yes, even when just watching their feet) between the two men may affect one's perception of their skating skills.
    ITA! As I said in my previous posts:

    Dai's choreo calls for him to be off balance -- that's part of what makes his performance interesting and watchable.

    The choreo will always be a factor in how the skaters are moving [and therefore the choreo influences how their movements are perceived].

    It can be an interesting exercise to view on mute. I do much prefer watching with the music, but without the usually non-stop commentary.


    Here's Dai's Swan Lake hip hop program, which was so much fun:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8pt3Q-J5WU (Russian clip, but commentators don't talk through it)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YCuZ...eature=related (ESPN with commentary -- tho' I like Paul's take)

    The "Cyber Swan" program was an important beginning in Dai's development as a dancer on ice. The program generated a lot of excitement when it debuted, and Dai has come full circle this year with "In the Garden of Souls," and "Blues for Klook."

  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I also watched Chan's Aranjuez, less practiced than Takahashi's KFB and the observation is the same. I figure it's about the basic standard of skating skills and Takahashi's looks weak only because it is compared to Chan's and when the interpretation and whole body performance are taken out of the picture. I am sure outside of the very few top tier skaters, his skating skills will make others seem slow and laboured.

    I can't agree to comparison of musicality and interpretation without music even if one watches the total movements, unless there is a huge gap like between those of entirely different levels. These are subjective enough as it is and even differ between performances by the same skater.
    I'm glad this method works.

    I agree with you. Compare Chan's new LP with Takahashi's new LP, I can still see the superiority in this category from Chan. And I'm surprised too that Takahashi's spins were so unflattering under this kind of close observation. I think using this method could analyse all technical details such as jumps, spins, and the levels of footworks. We could even use this method to understand better why and how the judges gave each skater the transition marks they've given.

    I also agree with you that it is unfair to use this method to judge anything related to the level of artistry or the level of musicality. It could give you a general understanding of how the skaters move in the programs. But how they move reflecting into the level of artistry or the level of musicality is totally connected with the music. Therefore, the conclusion might be too inaccurate, or even wrong.

    Unless you want to determine the range of the style of a skater, or compare the styles of different skaters. Not that you can't decide a style with the music. Music helped to decide the style. But without music, you could focus on the details of the movements more. If you want to know more how a skater moves, this might help.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    The likes of KVDP and Bradley would be unwatchable when viewed with the same critical eye.
    OT: Out of my curiosity, I went to find Bradley's 2011 US National's winning LP and watched it on mute. Try it. Watch his feet. It was almost embarrassing for a US National Champion

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wuyy1yYDi4

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Aranjuez final sequence is not designed with lots of moves for levels but is more sweeping and grand in accordance with the music. Chan's amazing skills are still showcased but differently.
    I almost want to worship this sequence of his!
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-17-2011 at 11:37 PM.

  14. #299
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    I also tried watching Bradley's skating feet.

    Sponsors should be very happy with Bradley's skate. Advertisements on the boards can be clearly read as still pictures. With all the stroking Bradley does, he seems to stay on one spot most of the time. On two feet.

  15. #300
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    Thanks for the suggestion about watching without music and just focus on the feet. After watching Chan skate, the rest of the field looks pale.

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