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Is Dai's SP up on youtube? I can't find it.
Men's Short Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 2:30 am
- Thread starter Spun Silver
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These results don't discourage skaters from doing quads. Rather, they encourage skaters to skate with the command and artistry Daisuke Takahashi showed. A message somewhat weakened by Brandon Mroz's inexplicably high PCS. Not having a quad may not hurt your PCS, but having one can definitely inflate it past all sense.
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^^ ITA, Serious Business.
I think Ross is a much better skater than Menshov and Mroz, and for this comp, very close to Machida, tho' I agree with slightly higher PCS for Machida. I don't care that Mroz can land a quad lutz. So what? I'd have scored it:
Dai, Kozuka, Machida, Miner, Menshov, Mroz, Mahbahnoozadeh, Contesti, Verner.
But even Armin has better ss than Menshov and Mroz -- Armin just needs more experience and maturity.
I think Ross is a much better skater than Menshov and Mroz, and for this comp, very close to Machida, tho' I agree with slightly higher PCS for Machida. I don't care that Mroz can land a quad lutz. So what? I'd have scored it:
Dai, Kozuka, Machida, Miner, Menshov, Mroz, Mahbahnoozadeh, Contesti, Verner.
But even Armin has better ss than Menshov and Mroz -- Armin just needs more experience and maturity.
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You're selling Menshov a bit short. He gives an impression of being out of control, but it's not really true. He is extremely fast and his edges are acceptable. I like Armin a lot and he is a lovely dancer on the ice, but he is quite slow. His edge depth and control is better than Menshov, but not really by much, and not enough to justify how much slower he is.
Mroz is just hopeless for a senior international man, though.
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I love how Takahashi only went for a Level 2 Camel spin. He didn't try to hold any position out for the 8+ revolutions to gain an extra level, which would have detracted from the quality of the element (because holding that long would have decreased the speed) and the beauty of the program. Look at how well he utilizes his arms throughout that spin too, just gorgeous.
The way he combined sensitivity, power, and unique movement - all directly to the music - was astounding. Receiving those PCS is so encouraging and it's a perfect example of skating as artistry. It's also a perfect example of why a certain other skater who may sometimes deserve a "10" for Skating Skills deserves quite a bit lower for a couple of the other program components.
The way he combined sensitivity, power, and unique movement - all directly to the music - was astounding. Receiving those PCS is so encouraging and it's a perfect example of skating as artistry. It's also a perfect example of why a certain other skater who may sometimes deserve a "10" for Skating Skills deserves quite a bit lower for a couple of the other program components.
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Thank you!
gmyers, I say this with all sincereity, don't worry about it, it's not the Olympics. I too am a huge proponent of the quad, always have been, it won't go away, in fact its value has gone up since the 2010 Olympics.
Rather, just enjoy this beautiful wonderful memorable moment in honor of Mr. Daisuke Takahashi and his phenomenal skating, or at least try to even if you're not a fan (I am btw).
Now onto the Ladies!
It is only the SP of the NHK trophy and Takahashi could still try a quad in the LP but 2008 and 2009 worlds were not the OLympics either and trends start somewhere.
The judges also said you can land quad lutz but you be 16 points behind someone quadless. Was Takahashi's score a reaction against the Quad lutz? I mean what was going through their minds when they made this score so high? There is one less element then there was at the Olympics and Takahashi beat his score there!
This whole thing is kind of troubling but could be wiped out by the LP so it is just going on the backburner!
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Really? Because, to me, the judges were saying that a quad lutz won't save you if the rest of your skating is mediocre. Which is a perfectly fine message to send, I would think. Let's get real here--the short program score is not based on a single element. Brandon may have the quad lutz, but literally every other aspect of Daisuke's skating was far superior to Brandon's. There's no question about it.
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LOOK AT HIS FEET. And his arms and his everything else, but look at his feet for the love of all that is holy, at his footwork and transitions and blades in general. His SP at Vancouver was awesome but not nearly the transitions, and the footwork was not as hard as the one he did this time. His use of the running edge has improved so much even from before. If I remember correctly he got a 4 in the circular and a 3 in the straight at the Olys, but neither was as hard as level 4 sequence he did here. It's a harder pattern. The program itself has so many transitions that it looks seamless. Steps into and out of everything, and amazing use of all parts of his body throughout. The judges didn't give a wet fart about the quad lutz when scoring that program, they were look at the actual skating, which is phenomenal. Even if you ignore artistry and performance entirely, Daisuke's technical abilities as a skater are so far above Brandon Mroz's that they aren't even in the same galaxy, let alone planet.
You have a good point there, gmyers, and don't think it hasn't crossed my mind as well. But I'm hoping & praying to the skategods, amongst ONE other, that since this time the Olympics will be held in Russia, not North America, the quad will be valued more highly, considering it is the homeland of the greatest mens figure skater of the 21st century.
I have H-O-P-E, as my baby niece likes to say, HOPE!
Anyhow, that's my last word on the subject, I don't want to ruin this thread nor this moment for such a deserving champion!
I don't like Menshov's skating. He can skate, sure, but he's not that polished and I don't think speed is everything -- just a nice mask for weakness in other areas. Got that right that Armin's edge depth and control are better.
I agree re Mroz, but apparently the judges don't, and isn't that a travesty? Mroz can skate too, but clearly he lacks good presentation skills and has zippo artistry. He has fairly decent ss, a tad better than Contesti or on a par with him. So why does the quad help elevate Mroz' PCS -- that's the flaw in this system, or is it just the politics?
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Totally agree on all counts. Tom Zzzzzzzzzzz's stable of skaters have been sent this message repeatedly over the years and the message never seems to be obtained and applied and, as a result, their PCS rightfully suffer.
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I agree. I've seen Mroz live and it was just horrifically dull. Every year we hear about how he worked with a great choreographer (Bezic, Dickson, Buttle) and has improved his presentation - but I just don't think he has it in him. Mroz vs Dai is not a situation like 2008 Worlds or the Olympics, where the guy with the quad brought a lot more to the table than just that jump. Like Kevin Reynolds (who actually has improved his presentation, just not enough), Mroz is simply too limited a skater to be competitive against the top of the field, even with a "4Lz". Which brings me to my next point...
I thought so, too. So did my friend who was watching with me, and who is a fellow skating fan. It looked very iffy on replay as well - not a <<, but very likely a <. I'll skip the replay because seeing his SP once was enough for me.
I hope Dai lands a 4F tomorrow and skates an awesome LP besides. And that Verner will redeem himself.
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I've already said my statement was somewhat exaggerated, wallylutz, if you bothered to read. I wanted to make a bold statement before seeing the slow-mo just to add emphasis to the point if evidence did turn up.
However, it's sad how someone with "lutz" in their name doesn't understand the mechanics of said jump. Mroz's attempt was certainly borderline in rotation if you look at the point at which he actually takes off from the ice and furthermore he does not take off from an actual BACK outside edge of the blade, but rather presses on the forward part of the blade. Mroz's 4Lutz edge is definitely questionable, especially in comparison to the Quad Lutz attempt of Plushenko.
This is a true Lutz takeoff - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA
Now watch Mroz's takeoff carefully - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP4lLmK6TPU&t=4m20s
However, it's sad how someone with "lutz" in their name doesn't understand the mechanics of said jump. Mroz's attempt was certainly borderline in rotation if you look at the point at which he actually takes off from the ice and furthermore he does not take off from an actual BACK outside edge of the blade, but rather presses on the forward part of the blade. Mroz's 4Lutz edge is definitely questionable, especially in comparison to the Quad Lutz attempt of Plushenko.
This is a true Lutz takeoff - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA
Now watch Mroz's takeoff carefully - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP4lLmK6TPU&t=4m20s
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That was gorgeous!
AMEN to that! A performance like that is why I love figure skating!
so far, I've only watch Dai (how could I not after the commentary here, the score, and the youtube link???? thanks for the link, btw). Wow. WoW. WOW. Is basically all I can say at the moment.
Mrs. P - thanks and I love your tradition, it is so cool to see the scores broken down like this!
Mrs. P - thanks and I love your tradition, it is so cool to see the scores broken down like this!
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