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Thread: Men's Short Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 2:30 am

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post

    The judges also said you can land quad lutz but you be 16 points behind someone quadless.
    Really? Because, to me, the judges were saying that a quad lutz won't save you if the rest of your skating is mediocre. Which is a perfectly fine message to send, I would think. Let's get real here--the short program score is not based on a single element. Brandon may have the quad lutz, but literally every other aspect of Daisuke's skating was far superior to Brandon's. There's no question about it.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Was Takahashi's score a reaction against the Quad lutz? I mean what was going through their minds when they made this score so high? There is one less element then there was at the Olympics and Takahashi beat his score there!
    LOOK AT HIS FEET. And his arms and his everything else, but look at his feet for the love of all that is holy, at his footwork and transitions and blades in general. His SP at Vancouver was awesome but not nearly the transitions, and the footwork was not as hard as the one he did this time. His use of the running edge has improved so much even from before. If I remember correctly he got a 4 in the circular and a 3 in the straight at the Olys, but neither was as hard as level 4 sequence he did here. It's a harder pattern. The program itself has so many transitions that it looks seamless. Steps into and out of everything, and amazing use of all parts of his body throughout. The judges didn't give a wet fart about the quad lutz when scoring that program, they were look at the actual skating, which is phenomenal. Even if you ignore artistry and performance entirely, Daisuke's technical abilities as a skater are so far above Brandon Mroz's that they aren't even in the same galaxy, let alone planet.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    It is only the SP of the NHK trophy and Takahashi could still try a quad in the LP but 2008 and 2009 worlds were not the OLympics either and trends start somewhere.



    The judges also said you can land quad lutz but you be 16 points behind someone quadless. Was Takahashi's score a reaction against the Quad lutz? I mean what was going through their minds when they made this score so high? There is one less element then there was at the Olympics and Takahashi beat his score there!

    This whole thing is kind of troubling but could be wiped out by the LP so it is just going on the backburner!


    You have a good point there, gmyers, and don't think it hasn't crossed my mind as well. But I'm hoping & praying to the skategods, amongst ONE other, that since this time the Olympics will be held in Russia, not North America, the quad will be valued more highly, considering it is the homeland of the greatest mens figure skater of the 21st century.

    I have H-O-P-E, as my baby niece likes to say, HOPE!

    Anyhow, that's my last word on the subject, I don't want to ruin this thread nor this moment for such a deserving champion!

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    You're selling Menshov a bit short. He gives an impression of being out of control, but it's not really true. He is extremely fast and his edges are acceptable. I like Armin a lot and he is a lovely dancer on the ice, but he is quite slow. His edge depth and control is better than Menshov, but not really by much, and not enough to justify how much slower he is.

    Mroz is just hopeless for a senior international man, though.
    I don't like Menshov's skating. He can skate, sure, but he's not that polished and I don't think speed is everything -- just a nice mask for weakness in other areas. Got that right that Armin's edge depth and control are better.

    I agree re Mroz, but apparently the judges don't, and isn't that a travesty? Mroz can skate too, but clearly he lacks good presentation skills and has zippo artistry. He has fairly decent ss, a tad better than Contesti or on a par with him. So why does the quad help elevate Mroz' PCS -- that's the flaw in this system, or is it just the politics?

  5. #155
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Really? Because, to me, the judges were saying that a quad lutz won't save you if the rest of your skating is mediocre. Which is a perfectly fine message to send, I would think. Let's get real here--the short program score is not based on a single element. Brandon may have the quad lutz, but literally every other aspect of Daisuke's skating was far superior to Brandon's. There's no question about it.
    Totally agree on all counts. Tom Zzzzzzzzzzz's stable of skaters have been sent this message repeatedly over the years and the message never seems to be obtained and applied and, as a result, their PCS rightfully suffer.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    There's no question that the Quad Lutz was underrotated. I don't need to see the replay, but you'll see it when it comes up.
    Wrong again, but not surprising.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Really? Because, to me, the judges were saying that a quad lutz won't save you if the rest of your skating is mediocre. Which is a perfectly fine message to send, I would think. Let's get real here--the short program score is not based on a single element. Brandon may have the quad lutz, but literally every other aspect of Daisuke's skating was far superior to Brandon's. There's no question about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    I agree re Mroz, but apparently the judges don't, and isn't that a travesty? Mroz can skate too, but clearly he lacks good presentation skills and has zippo artistry. He has fairly decent ss, a tad better than Contesti or on a par with him. So why does the quad help elevate Mroz' PCS -- that's the flaw in this system, or is it just the politics?
    I agree. I've seen Mroz live and it was just horrifically dull. Every year we hear about how he worked with a great choreographer (Bezic, Dickson, Buttle) and has improved his presentation - but I just don't think he has it in him. Mroz vs Dai is not a situation like 2008 Worlds or the Olympics, where the guy with the quad brought a lot more to the table than just that jump. Like Kevin Reynolds (who actually has improved his presentation, just not enough), Mroz is simply too limited a skater to be competitive against the top of the field, even with a "4Lz". Which brings me to my next point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    There's no question that the Quad Lutz was underrotated. I don't need to see the replay, but you'll see it when it comes up.
    I thought so, too. So did my friend who was watching with me, and who is a fellow skating fan. It looked very iffy on replay as well - not a <<, but very likely a <. I'll skip the replay because seeing his SP once was enough for me.

    I hope Dai lands a 4F tomorrow and skates an awesome LP besides. And that Verner will redeem himself.
    Last edited by Buttercup; 11-12-2011 at 07:41 AM.

  8. #158
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I've already said my statement was somewhat exaggerated, wallylutz, if you bothered to read. I wanted to make a bold statement before seeing the slow-mo just to add emphasis to the point if evidence did turn up.

    However, it's sad how someone with "lutz" in their name doesn't understand the mechanics of said jump. Mroz's attempt was certainly borderline in rotation if you look at the point at which he actually takes off from the ice and furthermore he does not take off from an actual BACK outside edge of the blade, but rather presses on the forward part of the blade. Mroz's 4Lutz edge is definitely questionable, especially in comparison to the Quad Lutz attempt of Plushenko.

    This is a true Lutz takeoff - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA

    Now watch Mroz's takeoff carefully - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP4lLmK6TPU&t=4m20s

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikiAndoFan#1 View Post
    That was gorgeous!
    AMEN to that! A performance like that is why I love figure skating!

  10. #160
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    so far, I've only watch Dai (how could I not after the commentary here, the score, and the youtube link???? thanks for the link, btw). Wow. WoW. WOW. Is basically all I can say at the moment.

    Mrs. P - thanks and I love your tradition, it is so cool to see the scores broken down like this!

  11. #161
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Daisuke

  12. #162
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    Daisuke
    That SP is divine. I think it may be his best yet, and is certainly the best program of the men's event this season. He looks like a new skater.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    Daisuke
    I am in awe of Daisuke! Everything...so seamless...those edges. I MUST watch again.

  14. #164
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    Daisuke's SP was great but it was definitely inflated due to host country advantage.

  15. #165
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    I fell in love with Dai's SP when I saw the clips from Skate Canada (which doesn't have the wobble at the end) . I love that it isn't a cool cyber-electronica or showy number but rather fiery, solemn abstractness, which suits my tastes more. One of my favourite Men's SP's.

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