Ice Dance - Free Dance | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Ice Dance - Free Dance

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I think in the end, they were close and the win could have gone to either team really. S/S also got a -1 for an extended lift in the SD. So in the end taking the deductions out :

[...]

So if there was a clear preference from the judges today for W/P, it was in PCS. And Shibs edged on Tech, as expected. So in the end, they're close.

Good analysis, I agree with your conclusion. I just hope Chuck would let go the conspiracy theory a little bit because you know, GPF is going to be in Canada and if W/P beat S/S there, I think we are going to hear it loud, very loud... ;)
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Really? Where was the 2nd mistake?

Andrew's obvious mistake on the twizzle and in the circular footwork.

I wouldn't use the term "held up" since that's too confrontational. I noticed Alex struggled on the 1st part of their twizzles and the lift started with a bump, causing it to extend a little bit. Two minor errors there, definitely not clean. Combined with issues on CH and IN, rightfully 3rd in my mind for the SD.

And they got marked down for those mistakes not held up


Yeah, if you look at the protocol, the judges actually gave the edge to W/P by far. Higher GOE and PCS, both of which are controlled by the judges. Shibs victory was decided by the level on one spin, called by the Technical Panel and a 1.00 extended lift deduction called by the referee. Just want to get the facts straight.

You call it getting the facts sraight I call it nitpicking. lol
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
The Shibs tend to get stronger and stronger technically as the season goes on. W/P (and I/K) seem to have a knack for making mistakes at the worst possible times. So no matter how judges see these teams in November, it's what they do in March that will determine the final outcome.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
You call it getting the facts sraight I call it nitpicking. lol

This is not nitpicking, Ice Dance is a sport judged for its precision. You are entirely within your rights to point out the little things that wasn't perfect. Frankly, none of these teams are near their peak yet and this is normal at this stage. The only recorded error, as reflected by actual negative GOE for W/P, was their twizzles in the SD. In that sense, an argument can be made that your claim earlier about them having more than one error was an unsubstantiated claim.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
The Shibs tend to get stronger and stronger technically as the season goes on. W/P (and I/K) seem to have a knack for making mistakes at the worst possible times. So no matter how judges see these teams in November, it's what they do in March that will determine the final outcome.

You know, it's not the technical side that's worrisome for the Shibs. They are good technically, no need to proving something that is established. Other teams they are competing with have more rooms than the Shibs to get better technically, for example the Lvl 2 spin that W/P got today. It's the fact that Shibs seemed to trail in the PCS in both of their dances against both W/P and I/K, that's alarming. And lastly, you should never ever count on your competitors to skate poorly, even if they have a track record of doing it for 100 years. Fact is, W/P skated extremely well today, something they didn't manage in their FD until Worlds last year but they are doing it by November this year. What they do now for sure will have an impact. I think I/K got the message loud & clear that their FD is not good enough. I continue to see issues with S/S's choice of music and their maturity level as a team in their FD and the complexity of their choreography. Despite S/S winning today, I think W/P right now has the edge over S/S assuming both continue to progress because you can see the victory solution for W/P clearer than you can see it for S/S, which consist of skating their FD clean and improve their levels on some elements - not too hard to do. For S/S, the picture is a lot more complex because improving your PCS is always harder than TES and there is no magic potion for that.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
You know, it's not the technical side that's worrisome for the Shibs. They are good technically, no need to proving something that is established. Other teams they are competing with have more rooms than the Shibs to get better technically, for example the Lvl 2 spin that W/P got today. It's the fact that Shibs seemed to trail in the PCS in both of their dances against both W/P and I/K, that's alarming. And lastly, you should never ever count on your competitors to skate poorly, even if they have a track record of doing it for 100 years. Fact is, W/P skated extremely well today, something they didn't manage in their FD until Worlds last year but they are doing it by November this year. What they do now for sure will have an impact. I think I/K got the message loud & clear that their FD is not good enough. I continue to see issues with S/S's choice of music and their maturity level as a team in their FD and the complexity of their choreography. Despite S/S winning today, I think W/P right now has the edge over S/S assuming both continue to progress because you can see the victory solution for W/P clearer than you can see it for S/S, which consist of skating their FD clean and improve their levels on some elements - not too hard to do. For S/S, the picture is a lot more complex because improving your PCS is always harder than TES and there is no magic potion for that.

Actually the Shibs did get a level 2 on the step sequence, which cost them a 1.5 points. Not sure if they can up the level on the other step sequence. So there is a little room for them to improve on the tech side, but yes not as much as the other teams.

I doubt the Shibs are counting on anyone skating poorly. And I think they know they need to improve their maturity. That was very apparent to me in both their programs, especially with Maia in the SD and Alex looked less perky and more demure in the FD. And yes, it's going to be hard to boost those PCS scores, but I think the Shibs can take on the challenge.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
PCS is determined entirely by the judging panel. The NHK judging panel has judges from 3 former SSRs. The World panel will not be nearly as slanted in one geographical direction, per ISU communication #1700.

My point about W/P and I/K was that they may be improving technically, but they still have the tendency to let nerves get to them, and then the mistakes happen unexpectedly. WHen that happens, high PCS scores won't be enough to compensate for lowered TES.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
This is not nitpicking, Ice Dance is a sport judged for its precision. You are entirely within your rights to point out the little things that wasn't perfect. Frankly, none of these teams are near their peak yet and this is normal at this stage. The only recorded error, as reflected by actual negative GOE for W/P, was their twizzles in the SD. In that sense, an argument can be made that your claim earlier about them having more than one error was an unsubstantiated claim.

And this is skating forum. I saw what I saw whether it was substantiated claim or not. What are you going to do fine me for making an unsubstantiated claim against your favorite.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
PCS is determined entirely by the judging panel. The NHK judging panel has judges from 3 former SSRs. The World panel will not be nearly as slanted in one geographical direction, per ISU communication #1700.

My point about W/P and I/K was that they may be improving technically, but they still have the tendency to let nerves get to them, and then the mistakes happen unexpectedly. WHen that happens, high PCS scores won't be enough to compensate for lowered TES.

Hey, I'm a Shibs fan, but I think you need to chill with the judging panel conspiracy. You're just feeding the detractors who will argue that the Shibs who are being "held" up for being a Z/S team.

And I also wouldn't count on W/P making mistakes. They seem very confident this year compared to last. I/K is still a big question mark.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
PCS is determined entirely by the judging panel. The NHK judging panel has judges from 3 former SSRs. The World panel will not be nearly as slanted in one geographical direction, per ISU communication #1700.

Would you please just let that former SSR thing go? That Georgian judge has absolutely no history of favoring Russian or Soviet teams. This panel has been very fair, dropping the Russians from 1st to 3rd after the FD with no falls and glaring error, which in the past, would have never happened. You still believe the NHK panel somehow didn't give S/S full credits? :unsure: Communist witch hunt was over decades ago, wake up!

As for the World Ice Dance panel, I hope this won't give you nightmare but here is the list of countries represented: AUS, BLR, CAN, CHN, CZE, FRA, GEO, GER, GBR, HUN, ISR, ITA, UKR

Red denotes former USSR members = 3 judges
Blue denotes the Commonwealth with historical ties to Canada = 3 judges
Navy denotes France, having an agenda of its own = 1 judge

The United States and Japan are absent from the panel. If you ask me, this might as well be a death panel for the Shibs, on paper that is.

My point about W/P and I/K was that they may be improving technically, but they still have the tendency to let nerves get to them, and then the mistakes happen unexpectedly. WHen that happens, high PCS scores won't be enough to compensate for lowered TES.

Chuck, you are still counting on other teams to crumble - don't do that. :sheesh: They have no more tendency to falter than Shibs getting extended lift deductions and level 1 on lifts.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
And this is skating forum. I saw what I saw whether it was substantiated claim or not. What are you going to do fine me for making an unsubstantiated claim against your favorite.

If you are here for a reasonable discussion, be my guest. To talk non sense, I have no time for you. W/P are not my favorite and you were wrong to put them down through your misleading and gross exaggeration about them having multiple errors. Spreading false rumors are explicitly prohibited by the T&C of this forum and yes, skating forum also have rules. Just beware others could also start false rumors about your fav after seeing your tactics, just don't cry and cringe then.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
If you are here for a reasonable discussion, be my guest. To talk non sense, I have no time for you. W/P are not my favorite and you were wrong to put them down through your misleading and gross exaggeration about them having multiple errors. Spreading false rumors are explicitly prohibited by the T&C of this forum and yes, skating forum also have rules. Just beware others could also start false rumors about your fav after seeing your tactics, just don't cry and cringe then.

If you have a problem with my posts report it to the mods and don't flame me ,just to be clear I do not put down skaters or start false rumors, you are the one who is exaggerating here. I will state my opinion just like you have stated yours. Don't bully me with your words it won't work.
 

blackswanphoto

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
Weaver and Poje were fantastic. I thought they should have won. On the other hand I/K had the worst free program I have seen all season. I did not think it could get more dreadful than the material the Shibs were given, but my god that was something terrible. I/K was sloppy, the music was grating, choreography was awful. It was a complete mess.
 

Dots

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2007
Fantastic for the Shibutanis! They are by far the better competitors and there is so much room for improvement with these two it's scary.

Lol @ people mentioning the world judges already. But hey, I want to play too! hmmm... One could say these countries were rumored to be part of a block back in the 90's :think:

AUS, BLR, CAN, CHN, CZE, FRA, GEO, GER, GBR, HUN, ISR, ITA, UKR


On paper it does look kind of an uphill battle for the S/S . Hopefully all that crap is behind us. Though TEN judges from Europeans??? WOW that's an eyesore!
 

jatale

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
I'm so happy! The Shibutani's won!!! Well deserved. I actually think they should have placed 1st in their SP too. What a lovely young brother and sister team and their hearts are in the right place - they have skated multiple times at Harvard's "Evening With Champions" charity ice-show to support cancer research.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
By smiling?

Really this comment is childish. The Shibs have wonderful deep edges and can generate speed without much effort. Their twizzles are the best in the world equal to Davis & White. With the FD program they have, smiling is a good thing as they are supposed to be enjoying dancing to "feel good" music. If you don' like them, that's a personal preference and that's fine, but no reason to be so snarky.
 

yunafan1860

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
between the bias pro Shibs and the bias vs Shibs, I'm not sure which one i would take.
Instead i would like to know who had the stroke of genius to chose that unspeakable horror that is IK's music. I guess it's only because the choreographer is not Morozov, that there are no signs of cross wisely placed here and there in the routine. Small consolation.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Fantastic for the Shibutanis! They are by far the better competitors and there is so much room for improvement with these two it's scary.

Lol @ people mentioning the world judges already. But hey, I want to play too! hmmm... One could say these countries were rumored to be part of a block back in the 90's :think:

AUS, BLR, CAN, CHN, CZE, FRA, GEO, GER, GBR, HUN, ISR, ITA, UKR


On paper it does look kind of an uphill battle for the S/S . Hopefully all that crap is behind us. Though TEN judges from Europeans??? WOW that's an eyesore!
Here's a brief reminder for those who keep harping about Euro-centric/Russian-led conspiracies:
1. There are a lot of countries in Europe,
2. Many of which are ISU members.
3. They are not all alike.
4. Some of them have good relations; others have a history of animosity.
5. There are not many NA countries.

Thus, it is very likely that judging panels will have more European judges than American ones. This does not make them biased, nor are the European judges "an eyesore". But these posts sure are.
 
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