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Thread: Ice Dance - Free Dance

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I think in the end, they were close and the win could have gone to either team really. S/S also got a -1 for an extended lift in the SD. So in the end taking the deductions out :

    [...]

    So if there was a clear preference from the judges today for W/P, it was in PCS. And Shibs edged on Tech, as expected. So in the end, they're close.
    Good analysis, I agree with your conclusion. I just hope Chuck would let go the conspiracy theory a little bit because you know, GPF is going to be in Canada and if W/P beat S/S there, I think we are going to hear it loud, very loud...

  2. #122
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Really? Where was the 2nd mistake?

    Andrew's obvious mistake on the twizzle and in the circular footwork.

    I wouldn't use the term "held up" since that's too confrontational. I noticed Alex struggled on the 1st part of their twizzles and the lift started with a bump, causing it to extend a little bit. Two minor errors there, definitely not clean. Combined with issues on CH and IN, rightfully 3rd in my mind for the SD.

    And they got marked down for those mistakes not held up


    Yeah, if you look at the protocol, the judges actually gave the edge to W/P by far. Higher GOE and PCS, both of which are controlled by the judges. Shibs victory was decided by the level on one spin, called by the Technical Panel and a 1.00 extended lift deduction called by the referee. Just want to get the facts straight.
    You call it getting the facts sraight I call it nitpicking. lol

  3. #123
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    The Shibs tend to get stronger and stronger technically as the season goes on. W/P (and I/K) seem to have a knack for making mistakes at the worst possible times. So no matter how judges see these teams in November, it's what they do in March that will determine the final outcome.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by demarinis5 View Post
    You call it getting the facts sraight I call it nitpicking. lol
    This is not nitpicking, Ice Dance is a sport judged for its precision. You are entirely within your rights to point out the little things that wasn't perfect. Frankly, none of these teams are near their peak yet and this is normal at this stage. The only recorded error, as reflected by actual negative GOE for W/P, was their twizzles in the SD. In that sense, an argument can be made that your claim earlier about them having more than one error was an unsubstantiated claim.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    The Shibs tend to get stronger and stronger technically as the season goes on. W/P (and I/K) seem to have a knack for making mistakes at the worst possible times. So no matter how judges see these teams in November, it's what they do in March that will determine the final outcome.
    You know, it's not the technical side that's worrisome for the Shibs. They are good technically, no need to proving something that is established. Other teams they are competing with have more rooms than the Shibs to get better technically, for example the Lvl 2 spin that W/P got today. It's the fact that Shibs seemed to trail in the PCS in both of their dances against both W/P and I/K, that's alarming. And lastly, you should never ever count on your competitors to skate poorly, even if they have a track record of doing it for 100 years. Fact is, W/P skated extremely well today, something they didn't manage in their FD until Worlds last year but they are doing it by November this year. What they do now for sure will have an impact. I think I/K got the message loud & clear that their FD is not good enough. I continue to see issues with S/S's choice of music and their maturity level as a team in their FD and the complexity of their choreography. Despite S/S winning today, I think W/P right now has the edge over S/S assuming both continue to progress because you can see the victory solution for W/P clearer than you can see it for S/S, which consist of skating their FD clean and improve their levels on some elements - not too hard to do. For S/S, the picture is a lot more complex because improving your PCS is always harder than TES and there is no magic potion for that.

  6. #126
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    You know, it's not the technical side that's worrisome for the Shibs. They are good technically, no need to proving something that is established. Other teams they are competing with have more rooms than the Shibs to get better technically, for example the Lvl 2 spin that W/P got today. It's the fact that Shibs seemed to trail in the PCS in both of their dances against both W/P and I/K, that's alarming. And lastly, you should never ever count on your competitors to skate poorly, even if they have a track record of doing it for 100 years. Fact is, W/P skated extremely well today, something they didn't manage in their FD until Worlds last year but they are doing it by November this year. What they do now for sure will have an impact. I think I/K got the message loud & clear that their FD is not good enough. I continue to see issues with S/S's choice of music and their maturity level as a team in their FD and the complexity of their choreography. Despite S/S winning today, I think W/P right now has the edge over S/S assuming both continue to progress because you can see the victory solution for W/P clearer than you can see it for S/S, which consist of skating their FD clean and improve their levels on some elements - not too hard to do. For S/S, the picture is a lot more complex because improving your PCS is always harder than TES and there is no magic potion for that.
    Actually the Shibs did get a level 2 on the step sequence, which cost them a 1.5 points. Not sure if they can up the level on the other step sequence. So there is a little room for them to improve on the tech side, but yes not as much as the other teams.

    I doubt the Shibs are counting on anyone skating poorly. And I think they know they need to improve their maturity. That was very apparent to me in both their programs, especially with Maia in the SD and Alex looked less perky and more demure in the FD. And yes, it's going to be hard to boost those PCS scores, but I think the Shibs can take on the challenge.

  7. #127
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    PCS is determined entirely by the judging panel. The NHK judging panel has judges from 3 former SSRs. The World panel will not be nearly as slanted in one geographical direction, per ISU communication #1700.

    My point about W/P and I/K was that they may be improving technically, but they still have the tendency to let nerves get to them, and then the mistakes happen unexpectedly. WHen that happens, high PCS scores won't be enough to compensate for lowered TES.

  8. #128
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    This is not nitpicking, Ice Dance is a sport judged for its precision. You are entirely within your rights to point out the little things that wasn't perfect. Frankly, none of these teams are near their peak yet and this is normal at this stage. The only recorded error, as reflected by actual negative GOE for W/P, was their twizzles in the SD. In that sense, an argument can be made that your claim earlier about them having more than one error was an unsubstantiated claim.
    And this is skating forum. I saw what I saw whether it was substantiated claim or not. What are you going to do fine me for making an unsubstantiated claim against your favorite.

  9. #129
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    PCS is determined entirely by the judging panel. The NHK judging panel has judges from 3 former SSRs. The World panel will not be nearly as slanted in one geographical direction, per ISU communication #1700.

    My point about W/P and I/K was that they may be improving technically, but they still have the tendency to let nerves get to them, and then the mistakes happen unexpectedly. WHen that happens, high PCS scores won't be enough to compensate for lowered TES.
    Hey, I'm a Shibs fan, but I think you need to chill with the judging panel conspiracy. You're just feeding the detractors who will argue that the Shibs who are being "held" up for being a Z/S team.

    And I also wouldn't count on W/P making mistakes. They seem very confident this year compared to last. I/K is still a big question mark.

  10. #130
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    You could point out notorious canadian judge Jean Senft was on the panel!!

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    PCS is determined entirely by the judging panel. The NHK judging panel has judges from 3 former SSRs. The World panel will not be nearly as slanted in one geographical direction, per ISU communication #1700.
    Would you please just let that former SSR thing go? That Georgian judge has absolutely no history of favoring Russian or Soviet teams. This panel has been very fair, dropping the Russians from 1st to 3rd after the FD with no falls and glaring error, which in the past, would have never happened. You still believe the NHK panel somehow didn't give S/S full credits? Communist witch hunt was over decades ago, wake up!

    As for the World Ice Dance panel, I hope this won't give you nightmare but here is the list of countries represented: AUS, BLR, CAN, CHN, CZE, FRA, GEO, GER, GBR, HUN, ISR, ITA, UKR

    Red denotes former USSR members = 3 judges
    Blue denotes the Commonwealth with historical ties to Canada = 3 judges
    Navy denotes France, having an agenda of its own = 1 judge

    The United States and Japan are absent from the panel. If you ask me, this might as well be a death panel for the Shibs, on paper that is.

    My point about W/P and I/K was that they may be improving technically, but they still have the tendency to let nerves get to them, and then the mistakes happen unexpectedly. WHen that happens, high PCS scores won't be enough to compensate for lowered TES.
    Chuck, you are still counting on other teams to crumble - don't do that. :sheesh: They have no more tendency to falter than Shibs getting extended lift deductions and level 1 on lifts.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by demarinis5 View Post
    And this is skating forum. I saw what I saw whether it was substantiated claim or not. What are you going to do fine me for making an unsubstantiated claim against your favorite.
    If you are here for a reasonable discussion, be my guest. To talk non sense, I have no time for you. W/P are not my favorite and you were wrong to put them down through your misleading and gross exaggeration about them having multiple errors. Spreading false rumors are explicitly prohibited by the T&C of this forum and yes, skating forum also have rules. Just beware others could also start false rumors about your fav after seeing your tactics, just don't cry and cringe then.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    Nonsense. The ISU has even used the Shibs as an example of how to generate higher GOE/PCS scores in one of their training tapes.
    By smiling?

  14. #134
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    If you are here for a reasonable discussion, be my guest. To talk non sense, I have no time for you. W/P are not my favorite and you were wrong to put them down through your misleading and gross exaggeration about them having multiple errors. Spreading false rumors are explicitly prohibited by the T&C of this forum and yes, skating forum also have rules. Just beware others could also start false rumors about your fav after seeing your tactics, just don't cry and cringe then.
    If you have a problem with my posts report it to the mods and don't flame me ,just to be clear I do not put down skaters or start false rumors, you are the one who is exaggerating here. I will state my opinion just like you have stated yours. Don't bully me with your words it won't work.

  15. #135
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    Weaver and Poje were fantastic. I thought they should have won. On the other hand I/K had the worst free program I have seen all season. I did not think it could get more dreadful than the material the Shibs were given, but my god that was something terrible. I/K was sloppy, the music was grating, choreography was awful. It was a complete mess.

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