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Thread: Pairs LP

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Nobody's ever said they're average. They are one of the top 3-4 team in the world. My problem with them is they always get huge PCS even with glaring mistakes. It's like the mistakes do not exist.
    As we've been told again and again, PCS (except perhaps PE) aren't supposed to be affected by errors in the elements. Savchenko and Szolkowy are hardly the only skaters who benefit from this particular quirk in the structure of CoP scoring.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    ETA: Give it a break Flattfan. S/S were fairly judged in that they were taken down for making mistakes. Yes, you betcha that S/S have overall better choreo, presentation and execution skills than K/S, even with mistakes. K/S have a better fp than sp this year, but they did not skate cleanly here either -- K/S botched their jump landings and they were skating soooo slooooow. I feel for K/S, but truthfully if S/S skate to their ability and K/S skate to theirs, S/S are in an entirely different league. Its just that you have to put your programs out there when it counts. This is early season GPF, and let's see how things shake-out come Worlds. If you don't like S/S, to each their own favorites, but how can you argue their flat out talent?
    How is it fair when their PE was higher than K/S?
    A lot of people thought K/S have the best LP. How is their choreography so much lower?
    Same with interpretation.

  3. #93
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    T&T got all level 4 except the twist. This is one reason they could get away with glaring mistakes in jumps and throws. S&S got lots of low levels. On the positive side, they have lots of room to improve the total score by just tweaking the elements.

  4. #94
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    Quite right evangeline, even though I'm no fan of IJS.

    Flattfan, S/S programs for starters are more challenging and difficult than anything any of the other skaters in this competition are doing. If you don't agree, then truly you need to view a little more closely and look at all the subtle details. S/S can do all the stuff the other pairs are doing and then some, but they don't sit back and do same old, same old. They are always looking to do something new and different and in the process with their coach, they have pushed the discipline forward. Anyone in the sport could tell you that. Even if they don't say it publicly, everyone knows that S/S are the team to watch and to be inspired by.

    ETA: Flattfan, K/S have a nice program for them, especially coming back from their disastrous showing at Worlds earlier this year. Be happy for them. Please stop trying to compare them with S/S. There is no comparison. To be perfectly honest, S/S fp transcends the pairs discipline b/c they are constantly pushing forward for unique ways to express themselves on ice. Their fp further tweaked and trained and with their timing just right could be a masterpiece. Even with their mistakes here, it is a masterpiece in the making. Widen your vision.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 11-12-2011 at 02:14 AM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    As we've been told again and again, PCS (except perhaps PE) aren't supposed to be affected by errors in the elements. Savchenko and Szolkowy are hardly the only skaters who benefit from this particular quirk in the structure of CoP scoring.
    So the two abominations V/T put out are about 1-2 points higher than K/S in choreography and interpretation. I need to be told again and again what the hell is PCS? Shouldn't PCS reflect the program components of the performance you just saw instead of what you know they can do? You take any explanation they throw at you and accept it?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Flattfan, S/S programs for starters are more challenging and difficult than anything any of the other skaters in this competition are doing. If you don't agree, then truly you need to view a little more closely and look at all the subtle details. S/S can do all the stuff the other pairs are doing and then some, but they don't sit back and do same old, same old. They are always looking to do something new and different and in the process with their coach, they have pushed the discipline forward. Anyone in the sport could tell you that. Even if they don't say it publicly, everyone knows that S/S are the team to watch and to be inspired by.
    I think I have said in the past that I really appreciate S/S for challenging themselves and come up with new ideas (sometime tacky, sometime good). But do they deserve their PCS when they put out that kind of performance? Sound like you're for reputation judging. Kinda like an ice skating Stockholm syndrome. After years of corrupted judging, a few more corrupted judgings don't seem to be out of the norm anymore and fans defend it tooth and nail.
    Last edited by FlattFan; 11-12-2011 at 02:15 AM.

  7. #97
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    I believe this is enough for T/T to earn a GPF spot. Silver + fourth > two bronzes, so that puts them ahead of the Canadian teams. Very interesting.

  8. #98
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    Flattfan: Even with the mistakes and their timing off, if you look at the details and subtleties in S/S whole program, how can you deny their above average presentation? If you don't like their take on modern dance or don't understand what they have tried to do with this program, fine. Root for your favorites and stop trying to fathom the judges and CoP -- its a no-win enterprise.

    ETA: I don't defend judges, but I do have eyes, heart, mind and soul -- and I can see and feel, and maintain an open mind when superb athletes try to push themselves past their comfort zone and bring something new and different to the ice. OTOH, K/S are just trying to survive out there.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 11-12-2011 at 02:22 AM.

  9. #99
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    I'm not exactly fond of the current structure of PCS scoring either, but, hey--rules are rules, whether spoken (e.g. the divorce of PCS from element errors) or unspoken (e.g. the reality of skating in the not-final group). K/S's current position as the #2 Russian team sure doesn't help either.

    Shouldn't PCS reflect the program components of the performance you just saw instead of what you know they can do?
    Toto, I've a feeling we're not in 6.0 any more.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Flattfan: Even with the mistakes and their timing off, if you look at the details and subtleties in S/S whole program, how can you deny their above average presentation? If you don't like their take on modern dance or don't understand what they have tried to do with this program, fine. Root for your favorites and stop trying to fathom the judges and CoP -- its a no-win enterprise.
    careful choice of words there. Did I deny their above average presentation?
    so if someone doesn't like a program, someone must not understand modern dance? OK. You need to be studied for SS syndrome.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I believe this is enough for T/T to earn a GPF spot. Silver + fourth > two bronzes, so that puts them ahead of the Canadian teams. Very interesting.
    This is so wrong. The Canadian pair is so much better than T/T.

  12. #102
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    Like I said upthread, Flattfan: I don't defend judges, but I do have eyes, heart, mind and soul -- and I can see and feel, and maintain an open mind when superb athletes like S/S try to push themselves past their comfort zone and bring something new and different to the ice. OTOH, K/S are just trying to survive out there.

    S/S syndrome indeed! May we all be so blessed! Thank you, skate gods! End of discussion.

  13. #103
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    Ouch, a lot of mistakes from pretty much all the pairs. K/S rebounded relatively well from the SP. Too bad for S/S, but you can't be on all the time. They have wonderful programs... They'll be fine. Denney/Coughlin were rather off today. Their usual lovely triple twist was even off. They probably should look into modifying some of those lift positions to try to make them more attractive, particularly the final lift (although a judge gave it a +3?). And Iliushechkina still needs to eat something.


    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I thought Caitlin is tiny. 5ft tiny.
    Girl T and Boy T look great together. Their lifts, their transitions, their twist, and every hand movements are amazing. But she just can't land her jumps consistently enough. What's her success rate in landing the 3S and 3T? like 1 in 4?
    No way, Caitlin Yankowskas is more like 5'3". She needs a very tall partner, not Tran.

    Takahashi and Tran have such beautiful skating. To be fair, he did not really jump any better than her today. To me, their biggest issue is by far their throws. But their overall look on the ice and the gorgeous positions she hits make up for a lot of their weaknesses. They really do have some standout qualities. Still, the fact that they could get the silver here with all their mistakes just shows how poorly skated this event was as a whole.
    Last edited by gold12345; 11-12-2011 at 02:38 AM.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    This is so wrong. The Canadian pair is so much better than T/T.
    Well they have better jumps and throws but I personally find T/T far more watchable. They have amazing softness and elegance. When I watch them, I'm reminded how beautiful pair skating can be. I don't find that with the Canadian pairs even if they're more consistent.
    Last edited by cassiem; 11-12-2011 at 02:41 AM.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassiem View Post
    Well they have better jumps and throws but I personally find T/T far more watchable. They have amazing softness and elegance. When I watch them, I'm reminded how beautiful pair skating can be. I don't find that with the Canadian pairs even if they're more consistent.
    To me, it's the opposite. T/T are just boring with those 'lyrical' piece. Everybody can do those things with slow music. M/MT(?) are energetic and their elements are superb. I don't really like D/R though. They're too sloppy.

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