Age Difference in Pairs and Ice Dance Teams

This thread may have been discussed previously, and if that's so, please excuse me for raising the question, however silly it may seem. We all know there are ISU regulations concerning the ages skaters must be in order to compete at various levels.

However, is there any kind of regulation concerning the age difference between pairs and ice dance teams?

Usually, the age differences are just a few years. However, sometimes there's a ten year age gap between the teams, which does seem a bit much. You have a mature man skating/competing with a little girl. If the girl is a mature skater, the team looks good, otherwise, it seems a bit strange.

A number of years ago Canadians Cindy Landry (age 17) competed with Lyndon Johnston(age 27) and they won the 1989 World silver medal. Landry was a mature 17-year-old, and they made a strong, attractive team.

Going back a number of years, the Soviets paired 12 and 13 year old girls with men in their early 20s. The result was not only a big gap in ages, but usually a big gap in sizes, with the man being able to throw his partner like a little doll. That doesn't seem to be happening any more, and the vast majority of pairs and ice dance teams are well meshed in size and ages.

There's no rule about the amount of age difference.

There are upper and/or lower age limits for various levels of international competition. In the US there are upper age limits for lower levels of competition, and doubtless in other countries as well but the details would vary. So in effect these limits often steer skaters toward partners who will be eligible for the same competitions they are -- it would be frustrating to train and not be allowed to compete anywhere.

(Since the upper limits for juniors are higher for male pair and dance partners than for female partners, that often encourages male dancers and pair skaters looking to compete at the junior level to choose partners a few years younger than them even if someone the same age or a little older would be just as good a match.)

Once you get to the senior level, as long as the younger partner is old enough to compete at that level, there are no rules to prevent a large age gap. But you won't get 12- and 13-year-olds at senior level anymore.

gkelly said:

There's no rule about the amount of age difference.

There are upper and/or lower age limits for various levels of international competition. In the US there are upper age limits for lower levels of competition, and doubtless in other countries as well but the details would vary. So in effect these limits often steer skaters toward partners who will be eligible for the same competitions they are -- it would be frustrating to train and not be allowed to compete anywhere.

(Since the upper limits for juniors are higher for male pair and dance partners than for female partners, that often encourages male dancers and pair skaters looking to compete at the junior level to choose partners a few years younger than them even if someone the same age or a little older would be just as good a match.)

Once you get to the senior level, as long as the younger partner is old enough to compete at that level, there are no rules to prevent a large age gap. But you won't get 12- and 13-year-olds at senior level anymore.

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gkelly - Thanks for the clarification.

gkelly said:

But you won't get 12- and 13-year-olds at senior level anymore.

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Except in Russia... and China?

Domestically you could get anything if the international rules don't apply. You could in the US (at Nationals) as well.

Or are you implying that Russia and China would fake birth certificates to claim that 12- and 13-year-olds are really 15?

Not sure I follow your first paragraph, gkelly. As to the rest, are you joking? Do you follow gymnastics? And 12-13 year-olds have dominated Russian ladies' skating recently. Is there a different rule there for dance and pairs?

Spun Silver said:

Not sure I follow your first paragraph, gkelly.

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The international age limits don't apply in domestic competition. If they're good enough to qualify, 12-year-olds can compete in seniors at the national level, in the US as in other countries.

As to the rest, are you joking? Do you follow gymnastics?

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No

And 12-13 year-olds have dominated Russian ladies' skating recently.

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At Russian Nationals, but not at senior internationals.

Is there a different rule there for dance and pairs?

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Only the upper age limit for male partners at the junior level.

China has notoriously cheated on the age rules for female gymnasts.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-flumenbaum/scandal-of-the-ages-docum_b_118842.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/27/chinese-gymnast-was-under_n_479220.html

silverpond said:

Going back a number of years, the Soviets paired 12 and 13 year old girls with men in their early 20s. The result was not only a big gap in ages, but usually a big gap in sizes, with the man being able to throw his partner like a little doll. That doesn't seem to be happening any more, and the vast majority of pairs and ice dance teams are well meshed in size and ages.

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I know that Gordeeva was very young when she was paired with Grinkov - it wasn't a huge age difference, but at that age, 4 years would have been a lot.

I can think of two American pairs with a large age gap, one current, one from the 1990s: Rockne Brubaker is almost 9 years older than Mary Beth Marley (and posters have mentioned that they seem mismatched at times), while Todd Sand is at least 12 years older than Natasha Kuchiki, whom he skated with before pairing with Jenni Meno. I remember that being mentioned during broadcasts - and Kuchiki must have been very young when they started skating together.

The repeating story of US pairs has been pairing older boys with young girls. It is particularly noticeable at the novice level, which typically is right after the pair has formed. It has not, on the whole, resulted well here in the US. However, it seems to often work well elsewhere (Brasseur & Eisler are another example, besides the Russian & Chinese teams).

The most successful of these US pairs would be McLaughlin/Brubaker in recent history, and Kuchiki/Sand (world bronze) in the past.

There are some points to the theory:
1. It is safer for a young girl to be thrown and lifted by the strongest guy that can still land a 3T and a 3S, and who has prior pair experience. This guy is apt to be a lot older.
2. If you've got a girl with ballet training and so nice positions in the lifts and spins who can land 3T & 2A (and there are a lot of them), the team can really create a splash in juniors.
3. The theory seems to be that both partners can always move on to other partners if one outgrows the other. The problem is that the theory doesn't work well in the US. The boys move on to other little girls, and the girls, even very skilled girls, often don't get another partner. It is not that easily for a now skilled, but now grown, girl to find a partner. Caitlyn Yankowskas has not managed the trick, despite being a wonderful pair girl. And it isn't a sure thing for the boy to find a partner either.

The downside in the US is that pairs seem to be formed without any thought past a single year, and there doesn't seem to be any effort to put together teams that have a good chance to last. One reason is that in the US, there are perfectly happy to form teams where the men are 5'6" to 5'9" (significantly shorters than 175 cm) . On the face of it, this is a recipe for problems, since they will be too short for most of the little girls after the little girls grow. It is possible for a pair with perfect timing to be closer in size. While there may be better examples, the equal size pair that was most impressive to me was Tai Babilonia & Randy Gardner. But that's not how it works for most teams.

Also it is a well known phenomenon that after they grow, many girls lose the ability to land triples. I see why the little girl agrees to the pairing, but I'm not sure why the boy wants to go through this endless cycling.

And actually, the little girl/older boy theory is embedded in ISU age rules for juniors. The junior boy can be 21 on July 1st before a season starts while the girl can be no older than 18 on July 1st. Both can be as young as 13 on July 1st. Note that the boy can be 22 on July 2nd, while they girl can have turned 13 on July 1st, so they can both compete in juniors with nearly an 8 year spread in their ages.

Sometimes the ages do give a problem. A particular case would be Jeremy Barrett and his first partner, Shantel Jordan, who were US Junior champions in 2004. Here's the GS article about the case:

http://www.goldenskate.com/2004/08/top-u-s-junior-pair-team-can-never-make-junior-worlds/

America’s top junior pairs team, Shantel Jordan and Jeremy Barrett, will never be seen at the World Junior Figure Skating Championships. Jordan is only eleven years old, too young to compete in ISU internationals. Her partner is 19, so by the time she’s eligible to compete in the ISU junior events, he’ll be too old. Although they may be eligible to enter smaller international competitions, their first major foray into international competition may not come until 2008, when they’ll be eligible for senior internationals.

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There was an effort to keep the team together, and in fact, they did compete in and win the French national pairs competition, resulting in the odd situation of a US team being the French National Champions in pairs.

Jeremy went on to partner Caydee Denney, who was young and small at the time, but who grew a bit, and their success waned. Denney partnered with John Coughlin, and Barrett is no longer skating pairs. Neither is Caitlyn Yankowskas. If we are to believe his bio, Barrett is 175 cm tall (5'10"). John Coughlin is 190 cm (over 6'2"). And thereby hangs a tale.

If the age fudging allegations are correct,

Sui/Han have an 8-year age difference (she's 14, he's 22)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_Wenjing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Cong

Yu/Jin would be 9 years apart (she's 13, he's 22).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaoyu_Yu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Yang

A Chinese article admits age fudging remains common in China.
http://big5.xinhuanet.com/gate/big5...wen_zhong_xin/2011-02/17/content_22085600.htm

dorispulaski said:

The theory seems to be that both partners can always move on to other partners if one outgrows the other. The problem is that the theory doesn't work well in the US. The boys move on to other little girls, and the girls, even very skilled girls, often don't get another partner. It is not that easily for a now skilled, but now grown, girl to find a partner. Caitlyn Yankowskas has not managed the trick, despite being a wonderful pair girl. And it isn't a sure thing for the boy to find a partner either.

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The Y/C split wasn't about size/age issues, though. I think Caitlin is kind of in Jamie Sale territory here - a promising pairs skater who found herself without a partner and had no luck with this for some time. Didn't Sale come close to giving up before her successful second tryout with Pelletier? I hope Caitlin will find the right partner eventually.

It's unclear why Coughlin left Yankowskas. I certainly don't know.

I do hope Caitlin will find a fabulous partner though. The fact that she hasn't shows it isn't easy.

Kovarikova and Novotny (CZE, 1995 world champions) are another team with a large age difference, nearly 12 years. Worked for them.

The trick with forming pairs at the lower levels, when one or both partners are young enough to be still growing, is that trying to form a long-term team that will last long enough to be successful in seniors is always going to be based on guesswork, and sometimes the guesses will be wrong. One skater will grow a lot and the other won't. One skater will master triple jumps and the other won't. One will lose interest in skating pairs or in skating competitively at all. One will run out of money. Etc.

Also at the lower levels, the parents' relationship as well as the skaters' can play a large role. Location can play a large role -- if there's an appropriate partner, at least for the time being, close at hand, why move thousands of miles away, especially on the strength of a prediction/guess that might not come true as mentioned above?

In smaller countries, looking ahead to international junior or senior competition, just finding another skater who is also interested in competing pairs and able to represent the same country is another consideration.

Ideally teams would form that are well matched at the time they form, with the safety considerations of the man being strong enough and the lady small enough for the overhead tricks that become more important at the higher levels, and that also have the potential to remain well matched as the skaters mature. When it does work out that way, everyone wins.

Sometimes partnerships are formed at lower levels with the expectation that they will serve the skaters' needs now and that one or both partners will move on to different partners later in their careers. If they serve the needs now, when it comes time to find new partners those skaters will still be better off than if they had no experience skating competitive pairs, which might be the other alternative.

And sometimes a team is mismatched because of large age difference early in the partnership, but as the younger partner matures they become better matched, the age difference becomes less important once they're both adults, and they go on to senior-level success together.

It's very hard to form pair teams at all because the range of appropriate body types is so narrow, the range of skills needed is so wide, the mindset is different from singles (both partners need to be team players, and the lady needs to be fearless), and there are far fewer male pair skaters or male skaters willing to learn pairs available than there are girls/women who would like to compete in pairs.

If the only teams that ever formed were ideal now and likely to remain ideal later, there would be even fewer teams.

I think Rockne Brubaker should break up with Marybeth Marley and skate with Caitlin. That would be a pair that would make sense. Both are attractive and have similar styles.

silverpond said:

This thread may have been discussed previously, and if that's so, please excuse me for raising the question, however silly it may seem. We all know there are ISU regulations concerning the ages skaters must be in order to compete at various levels.

However, is there any kind of regulation concerning the age difference between pairs and ice dance teams?

Usually, the age differences are just a few years. However, sometimes there's a ten year age gap between the teams, which does seem a bit much. You have a mature man skating/competing with a little girl. If the girl is a mature skater, the team looks good, otherwise, it seems a bit strange.

A number of years ago Canadians Cindy Landry (age 17) competed with Lyndon Johnston(age 27) and they won the 1989 World silver medal. Landry was a mature 17-year-old, and they made a strong, attractive team.

Going back a number of years, the Soviets paired 12 and 13 year old girls with men in their early 20s. The result was not only a big gap in ages, but usually a big gap in sizes, with the man being able to throw his partner like a little doll. That doesn't seem to be happening any more, and the vast majority of pairs and ice dance teams are well meshed in size and ages.

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Another team with a huge age gap that comes to mind was the team of Shelby Lyons and Brian Wells in the 90's. He was 11 years her senior.

koheikun90 said:

I think Rockne Brubaker should break up with Marybeth Marley and skate with Caitlin. That would be a pair that would make sense. Both are attractive and have similar styles.

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I think Rockne Brubaker should have quit pairs after it became clear that he was never going to grow. He's too short, in the final analysis. His current ISU bio has the height removed on it His bio on icenetwork says he is 5'9". I suspect that is a slight exaggeration.

Caitlin's bio says she is 5'3". In any case, she is too tall for Rockne. (Mary Beth Marley is 4'8" & Keauna MacLaughlin was 5 foot even.)

dorispulaski said:

I think Rockne Brubaker should have quit pairs after it became clear that he was never going to grow. He's too short, in the final analysis. His current ISU bio has the height removed on it His bio on icenetwork says he is 5'9". I suspect that is a slight exaggeration.

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Robin Szolkowy is 5'9'' and doing fine - but Aliona is only 5', so it works out well for them. You can see in this picture that Rockne probably isn't much shorter than Robin - they actually look about the same height, but obviously Robin's hair is not adding anything extra to his apparent height. Mervin Tran is also 5'9'', though of course Narumi is really tiny. It's all about finding the right partner.

Buttercup said:

Robin Szolkowy is 5'9'' and doing fine - but Aliona is only 5', so it works out well for them. You can see in this picture that Rockne probably isn't much shorter than Robin - they actually look about the same height, but obviously Robin's hair is not adding anything extra to his apparent height. Mervin Tran is also 5'9'', though of course Narumi is really tiny. It's all about finding the right partner.

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Let's hope your opinion discourages detractors who want Tran to "ditch" Narumi and pair up with Caitlin. I love Caitlin but Tran/Caitlin would be a bad idea.