11-18-2011, 11:56 PM
No, to distract the judges from his lack of "artistry".
Originally Posted by seniorita
11-19-2011, 12:05 AM
I think the hair part is meant as joke only, nothing serious. I do agree with the rest of what you said. No matter what Chan does or doesn't do, some people will just hate him and there will always be controversial about his marks. It's a tradition on this board.
Originally Posted by ILoveFigures
11-19-2011, 12:06 AM
Not a huge deal.
Originally Posted by fscric
During the 2010/2011 season, the level four footwork season had a base value of 3.90, and that has remained unchanged. However, the GOEs one can get lower now. Last season, +3 across the board would net the skater three extra points, for a total of 6.90 (I believe the points were straight +1, +2, and +3, directly corresponding to the GOEs given) . Now, +3 across the board would get only 2.1 points (total = 6.00), +2 scores 1.4 and +1 scores 0.7 (so essentially a 30% reduction in possible GOE earned).
This can clearly be seen comparing Takahashi's 2011 NHK SP and Chan's 2011 World SP scores for footwork. Takahashi got six +3s and three +2s, for a factored GOE of 1.90 (source). Chan got the reverse, six +2s and three +3s, but the factoring gave him a GOE of 2.29 (source). All that means for Chan (and Takahashi and Fernandez and....) is that an element he can score well with is worth slightly less.
11-19-2011, 12:10 AM
IP, thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it.
11-19-2011, 12:11 AM
I don't think that's true. I don't think some (such as me) are trying to convince others to love Patrick. It's more like defending some ridiculous accusation that's far from the truth. As they always say, hater's gonna hate.
Originally Posted by Spun Silver
11-19-2011, 12:13 AM
I don't think most of Patrick's fans think he's the epitome of anything, but you can believe whatever you want.
Originally Posted by Blades of Passion
11-19-2011, 12:15 AM
If you look at the score, he did get penalized for his fall. What else do you want??
Originally Posted by skateflower
11-19-2011, 12:18 AM
But....what skater is completely and universally loved by all fans? Every skater will have detractors of a sort and cries of WUZROBBED and OVERSCORED are practically endemic to this board, and not only regarding Patrick. Are differences in opinion not allowed?
Originally Posted by jettasian
11-19-2011, 12:41 AM
I watched only EuroSport today, so I didn't even have to look for it. If you can give us the links to "all other professional opinions" that agreed with his high score today, that would be nice of you.
Originally Posted by SkateFiguring
Last edited by skatinginbc; 11-20-2011 at 07:28 AM.
11-19-2011, 01:28 AM
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. What I was saying was the fact that you tend to put artistic skaters over tech-strong skaters was different from what the judges actually do. Bring some detailed numbers, so we could discuss them. Otherwise, it sounds baseless, especially with those reputation and politics accusations throwing around.
Originally Posted by Art&Sport
I wouldn't put Chan into artistic skaters category. And I agree that he doesn't have the best artistry in the world. But I very much agree with what Ilovefigures said. What is artistry? How do you judge artistry in PCS? According to the breakdowns in the 5 categories in PCS, Chan did well in general. He is a well rounded skater, better than artistic skaters who are often weak technically, such as Rippon; and better than pure technical skaters who are very much lack of artistic abilities, such as Song. It is baseless to put Chan and Song in the same group on artistry and seperated only by "posing" skills. (Yes, you did say superior blade work. But as you yourself said before, that doesn't belong to artistry.) The way you assess his skills was as if he has little or no artistry. That was why I say that Chan has good artistry, not the best, but very considerable. It was just the artistry you don't like.
Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-19-2011 at 01:40 AM.
11-19-2011, 02:29 AM
Enjoy the skaters you love, Bluebonnet. If you want to know what artistry is in figure skating, see my below response. Yes, since art is subjective, it is difficult to judge, and that is why PCS scores are so manipulable. No argument that Chan is not as poor in presentation skills as some skaters. He just does not excel in that area, despite his great ss making many feel that he does. These are my opinions. No, I do not feel Patrick Chan has "good artistry," nor do I think that he has "considerable artistry." Patrick will be 21 next month and he still has time to mature and further develop that aspect of his skating, hopefully, since it seems pretty soon the judges will declare he's already master of the universe! It's figure skating, so enjoy who you prefer. Debate is a huge part of figure skating.
Originally Posted by Bluebonnet
ILoveFigures, do you really? I wish they would bring them back as a separate competition.
Originally Posted by ILoveFigures
In regard to artistry in figure skating or in any endeavor, "facts" have nothing to do with emotion, imagination, beauty. Just as I mentioned to someone in another thread -- check out video clips of the great artist/ athletes who have graced the sport of figure skating, if you want to gain some sense of artistry on ice. The word can be looked up in the dictionary, but the feelings evoked by Janet Lynn, Toller Cranston, Matt Savoie, and Dai and Jeremy this season are indefinable, indescribable, unable to be contained or captured exclusively but the sheer artistry of their performances can be viewed inexhaustibly, and felt and experienced and perceived in different ways by different people. I don't care who "wins" GP final or Worlds, I only know that Dai and Jeremy have won my heart this season, and they win it practically every time they take the ice.
Yes the word "artistry" is not in the rules, thank god. I guess the ISU is at least smart enough to know that art can not be codified. They refer to "presentation" instead. One of the reasons why figure skating will always be a difficult sport to judge is because of the "artistic" nature of it which is part of the sport's very essence, and art is a subjective experience. That is why there will always be debate and controversy. I feel that the IJS system has complicated the judging process even further. Unfortunately, IJS was created by the ISU in a rushed manner mainly to protect judges and to pacify the IOC. The ISU has been trying to make IJS work ever since, and the process of trying to fix it (pun intended) and make it work will continue far into the future. Meanwhile, IJS is here to stay and its probably a lot of fun and a blast for those who love numbers and protocols and enjoy lecturing other fans and talking about GOEs, PCS, TES, technical panels, etc. in order to "back up" their perceptions and opinions, or to just have lively CoP-fest conversations.
Of course 6.0 was imperfect as well, but there may have been a way to improve that system without throwing it out completely, but that would have taken too much time and thought, and the ISU was in a hurry to implement and enforce. The irony is that the ISU should have tried to work on improving the judging a long time before 2002. Because the ISU is slow to change, it has been brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century, still holding on to antiquated attitudes and corrupt politics. The IJS system does not eliminate politics, nor prevent corruption. It simply prevents detection of politics and corruption, and thereby avoids scandal. All systems are corrupt, and demand strict adherence, and are ultimately ineffective, despite their mandated power. I don't think every judge is dishonest, or that the system doesn't work in some ways, or that the scoring is always wrong. The scoring is just very complicated and doesn't always make sense, plus it is not as exciting in the kiss n' cry anymore.
Who said Chan needs to be "punished"?
Art enables us to find ourselves and lose ourselves at the same time. Thomas Merton
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. Albert Einstein
Last edited by Art&Sport; 11-19-2011 at 02:41 AM.
11-19-2011, 03:02 AM
Off the ice
Amodio - I vote for that intervention, ASAP. But Florent likes working with Morozov and actually fought with the FFSG to be allowed to continue doing so.
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
Chafik was so good in the SP at last year's TEB... I'm hoping for better skates from him in the future. Did you know he only started skating at age 12? And I think you were the one who mentioned a while ago how diverse team France is - Chafik definitely qualifies in that regard, and I hope seeing skaters of different cultural and ethnic backgrounds will be inspiring to younger kids and get them interested in skating.
Originally Posted by skatinginbc
Chris Howath is the only ES commentator who really knows what he's talking about outside of ice dance, and even he has some moments.
Originally Posted by fscric
That sounds fair to me - high level step sequences have a BV like triples, so it's only fair that their GOEs are like triples, too.
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
11-19-2011, 03:45 AM
The problem with the competition was the choices of music. It was dreadful with the arms flying about.
Patrick's hair didn't bother me but his skating was far from its best.
Nan Song did everthing methodical, and quite slow.
Michal's choice of music was dreadful. He should never use it again.
Adam should realize he is not a Russian skater.
Poor Nobi losing his elegant jumps
11-19-2011, 05:46 AM
Break between steps and the actual jump.
Originally Posted by emma
11-19-2011, 06:16 AM
In my opinion the judges got it right:
Chan is a brilliant skater (his edges, etc.) and he has won the WC. That title gives a skater reputation points (this is figure skating, LOL!!!). That should not happen, but it always has = as long as I have watched figure skating (since 1964). Chan´s way of floating on the ice really effortlessly has been noticed by the judges already when he did not have the titles, yet.
I would say that Song did not quite get the PCS he would have deserved. He needs to medal a bit more and skate really well in 2012 Worlds. After that his PCS score will go up, I believe.
Many sp programs were not shown on our tv, but one of them was that of Rippon. It is a beautiful program, but Rippon looks very slow and also hesitant before the 3 axel. I like curly hair, but his looks a total mess.
Last edited by Jaana; 11-19-2011 at 06:21 AM.