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Thread: Men's Short Program, Fri. 11/18 at 9 am EST

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    1. My experience has been that there are more accusations of Chan-bashing than actual bashing.
    2. Criticizing Chan's skating, programs etc. is not necessarily bashing. Comments about his character, looks, conspiracies and such often are bashing and are inappropriate.
    3. Golden Skate posters are not obligated to admire Chan's skating and it is perfectly legitimate to express negative opinions about it - even when he is in good form. I am going to guess that the suggestion that Chan should be universally admired is a turnoff for many.
    4. Often the people who accuse others of bashing Chan are perfectly happy to post all sorts of negative and unpleasant stuff about his competitors. Pot, kettle, etc. (no, Bluebonnet, not you).
    5. The top skaters will always get more attention, both positive and negative (see Evan Lysacek during the Olympic year, or discussions about V/M and D/W).
    1. I sort of feel the opposite. When people starts complaining about his hair, his personality, his multiple fall cushion (there is no such thing), then yes, that's bashing. It appears in every thread where Chan is somewhat included.
    2. I completely agree with this, and critizing a performance is in no way bashing.
    3. I never stated that. Of course you should be allowed to like/dislike a skater, but you shouldn't attack them as soon as the opportunity comes along.
    4. Can't say I've seen it/noticed it. The place where I have seen it is Mao vs Yuna, and I really hope people would not bring that level of imaturity here.
    5. Well, of course they will. Speaks for itself. But there is a difference between critizing a performance based on your emotions or with technical knowledge of why that result came into place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Typical for Patrick. My feeling: Those who love Chan, express your love and stop expecting that "everybody" just has to love him to death or there's something wrong. I credit Chan for what he does well, but I disagree with the over-scoring when he makes mistakes, and for me I don't feel that he has superb artistry and presentation. Also, I don't think his SS should automatically give him a 15 point advantage over everyone else. Beautiful 3-axel this time, but as for the rest, how is it sooooo much better than everyone else here just because he generally has great ss?

    The judges are in a quandary -- they seem to be saying: Must reward that quad, and Song was low-balled in fp at CoC, while Oda was overrated there, so they turned the tables here. IMO, Oda is not a great skater just b/c he has the jumps, but the judges fluctuate in how they rate Oda, often over-scoring him -- thankfully here they didn't. Obviously, Song does not have great presentation skills, but I think he skated his fp better than his sp at CoC, and may likely do that here as well. I don't think Song's better than average jumps and his quad here should have trumped his lack of presentation skills in the sp. I think Song was scored a tad too high. I would definitely have scored Kevin Reynolds at least around 70 pts, and Amodio below Kevin at around 69. Kevin had a really good program and wasn't rewarded, IMO. I also think that Brezina is an excellent jumper but is lacking in artistry (he was also shaky on his combo here), while Adam has better artistry with good to average jumps (but had a slight bobble after landing the 3-axel). Since he's been training the quad, Adam has shown some general weakness with his 3-axel which is known to often be shaky, so that reputation precedes him. However, because of their opposing strengths and weaknesses, I would say that Brezina and Adam to me are more on a par, unless Brezina skates lights out with his jumps which would give him the edge. But it looks like the judges will give Brez the edge over Rippon no matter what because JUMPING ABILITY seems to Always Trump Artistry, unless you are Patrick Chan -- who is automatically placed in a different category by the judges and his fans, no matter what he does.

    So, the judges are willing to place Song ahead of everybody who has better artistry because of his strong jumps, but when it comes to Chan, who also lacks artistry, but is better than Song at posing and has superior blades and good jumps when he's on, they'll keep Chan ahead. After all, Chan is the defending World champion, and on another planet apparently than the rest of his competitors. I would have had Chan around 79, with Song at 75, Adam and Brezina somewhat interchangeable with slight edge to Adam for superior artistry around 73, Brezina 72.50, Reynolds 70 to 71 and Amodio 69.
    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Yes, just like I have expressed, Bluebonnet, I believe Chan is weaker in artistry than skaters like Dai, Jeremy, Kozuka and Adam. As far as the results, if you notice in my previous post, I would still have Chan in first, but just not as high as the judges scored him. As far as placements, I thought Kevin should be rated higher than Amodio, and that Adam should slightly edge Brez on artistry but that Brez is generally stronger with jumps, but not always consistent. So the placements where I differ from what the judges decided, actually have not much to do with my assessment of Chan's skate.

    I certainly agree that Song is not in a high league re artistry -- but neither is Chan. I did say that Chan should edge Song by virtue of his better "posing" skills and his superior blade work, so obviously Chan's PCS in my estimate would be higher than Song's, but IMO, Chan's weakness in artistry is masked by his superior ss. ITs very true that IJS loves to reward jumps over artistry. In general, skating officials have always tended to reward jumps over artistry. The problem is that under IJS, the PCS marks are often manipulated, and do not always accurately reflect a skater's level of presentation skills.

    If you love Chan and feel he has superb artistry, enjoy! What does it matter that everyone doesn't see it the same? You don't need to tell me I don't like Chan's "artistry", as if my perceptions are somehow a failing on my part. Enjoy Chan and express your viewpoints. I don't enjoy Chan as much as you do, and I will express my viewpoints.

    Chan skated okay here, but it was nothing to write home about. I agree with those who said that the men weren't that great in this event overall. Adam didn't attempt the quad, but he skated well -- perhaps with not as much energy as at SA (altho' with fewer mistakes) -- I like Adam's program/ choreo better than Chan's. I also think Song had more energy and excitement in his skate, but he's definitely subpar presentation wise. I think Song winning a medal at CoC raised his status and profile with the judges. Brez didn't skate his absolute best and he didn't go for the quad either. I think that even the guys who can land the quad consistently are sometimes afraid to go for it out of fear of falling, while Chan probably feels he can always go for the quad whether he lands it or not, b/c the judges generally will score him higher regardless.
    You keep talking about artistry but you never back up with facts. Besides, the word artistry is not mentioned anywhere in the rules, and therefore no one is judged on artistry. The thing is, what is artistic to you might not be artistic to some, and vice verca. This has all got to do with cultural differences, age differences, educational differences, etc etc.. The judges are marking the PCS by a set of criteria, and it is up to the skater to demonstrate as many of these criteria's as they can during the time frame they have. If you look at all these criterias, I can guarantee you it will make you better understand why the PC are given the way they are. I am not saying you have to agree with the result, but at least it might give you an idea of why it is the way it is.

    And btw, the judges are NOT ranking the skaters. The techinal panel decides the difficulty of each element seperatly, and so do the judges with their GOE. They mark the quality of each individual element. If you look at the protocol from this event, you can see that Chan was punished for the mistake he did by the maximum amount of deduction. That does not mean he is supposed to get punished on the rest, which he did well.

  2. #122
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    Woo hoo! Patrick and Song are 1 and 2, go them!

    So this week CoP is not right again, such predictable reaction from some people, never in doubt.

  3. #123
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think we should start a Golden Skate tradition. Instead of saying "pot, kettle, black," let's change it to "donkey, chicken, big-head."

    That way, years in the future people will be scratching their heads, asking, what does that mean? Like we always wonder what voidy means on FSU.

  4. #124
    Rooting for Adrian, Javi and Kevin R!!! :) aemeraldrainc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    I mentioned his English. Can't find a vid (I watched on IN livestream). I guess it's from having lived in NJ while training w/Morozov. But he seems to have been with Lee Barkell since the 2010-2011 season. Note that he was off the ice completely for 6 weeks last spring/summer due to injury, acc. to Wikipedia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobunari_Oda
    Ok, thanks!

  5. #125
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think we should start a Golden Skate tradition. Instead of saying "pot, kettle, black," let's change it to "donkey, chicken, big-head."

    That way, years in the future people will be scratching their heads, asking, what does that mean? Like we always wonder what voidy means on FSU.
    I like that idea a lot!

  6. #126
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    I have no clue how the judges would score Oda if he were clean but he just looks lost out there to me sometimes.

    What kind of pants to Amodio have on. I liked him soo much when he was in juniors and with his other coach.
    Last edited by lavender; 11-18-2011 at 07:38 PM.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    i think we should start a golden skate tradition. Instead of saying "pot, kettle, black," let's change it to "donkey, chicken, big-head."

    that way, years in the future people will be scratching their heads, asking, what does that mean? Like we always wonder what voidy means on fsu.
    yes!

  8. #128
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    Wow what is going on with Kevin and that hair. It has a mind of it's own.

  9. #129
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    I am very impressed with Nan Son.
    So much progress made in Jumping.
    Yes, he has a way to go in terms of SS, but I can see that he can dance.

    He will not stay there too long in my opinion. He will probably make a splash in expression in the future too.

  10. #130
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I found Nan Song to be the best in this SP. He isn't being given enough credit in the PCS and really has better edging and much better expression than those marks signify. He was the only person who truly ATTACKED in this SP and his musical timing and commitment was actually very commendable. I wish that moment of head-grabbing would be removed from the choreography, though.

    Whoever said Patrick Chan looks bored by his own SP was pretty accurate. More than that, he looked a little desperate by the end of it. He of course has the best basic skating ability here, blah blah blah, but the performance wasn't inspired and the mistake on the Quad was huge. The PCS and GOE he received were too high, as to be expected.

    I would have scored it as such:

    Nan Song

    4T+3T, +1 GOE ---> 15.4
    3A, +1 GOE ---> 9.5
    3Lz, -1 GOE ---> 5.3
    FCSp4, -1 GOE ---> 2.9
    CSSp4, 0 GOE ---> 3.0
    SlSt3, +1 GOE ---> 3.8
    CCoSp3, 0 GOE ---> 3.0

    Skating Skills ---> 7.25
    Transitions ---> 6.0
    Performance ---> 7.75
    Choreography ---> 7.0
    Interpretation ---> 7.25

    Total = 78.15

    Patrick Chan

    4T <, -3 GOE ---> 3.2 (including the point deduction for falling)
    3A, +1 GOE ---> 9.5
    CCoSp3, +1 GOE ---> 3.5
    3Lz+3Toe, 0 GOE ---> 10.1 (this is generous; should probably really be -1 GOE)
    FSSp4, +1 GOE ---> 3.5
    CCSp3, +1 GOE ---> 3.7
    SlSt3, +2 GOE ---> 4.3

    Skating Skills ---> 8.75
    Transitions ---> 8.0
    Performance ---> 7.5
    Choreography ---> 8.0
    Interpretation ---> 7.75

    Total = 77.8

    -------
    Out of the rest of the competitors, the most remarkable thing to me was how delicious ROMAIN PONSART is.

  11. #131
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    Patrick Chan: Ehh..... I’m not the biggest fan of keeping programs for another year, unless you clearly didn’t do well with it the first time around. Patrick’s already nailed this program to the wall from Worlds 2011 and I can’t imagine him skating it any better (and given the new GOE limitations on his footwork, doubtful he’d score higher). Add that to the fact that I never really LOVED this program in the first place – certainly not compared to his Exilados... well, I doubt I’m gonna root that hard for him in the SP. But the thing is – the dude can skate. Even when he’s not on (and he wasn’t here), he’s still incredible to watch. I’ve never seen someone who’s talent is so skate-specific. Everything about what he does is grounded in those amazing blades of his. And personally, that’s what I respond to in figure skating. Even when off, there’s so much quality here. The footwork section is just sick. The triple axel was spot on. And even if it’s not my favourite of his programs, I admire the new choreographic subtleties found throughout – just the little toss of joy he gives off is infectious.

    Nan Song: You know, he’s definitely rough around the edges, but really, this wasn’t that bad. Epic jumps, and even if the music is overdone, it’s overdone for a reason (aka, Clint Mansell’s score is really really good and the intensity suits him). I’ve gotta ask, though – is that all that’s necessary for the steps preceding the solo triple. Cause that’s kinda lame.

    Michal Brezina: I was hoping for MORE attack, actually. The footwork was well skated and placed, though, and his jumps (when on) are terrific. Interesting that he got the second highest PCS of the night. Don’t know if that’s mere laziness from the judges or is fair.

    Adam Rippon: This program has a KILLER ending. That split jump and then that final spin is just a thrilling skating moment. I wish this program before it had more of a gradual rise to that crescendo, though. He didn’t stalk his 3A as much here as he did at Skate Canada (or was that just the long program) and I was pleasantly surprised. I’m fine with his PCS being behind Brezina’s even if I don’t think I’d have them like that. But he really wowed me in the end, so that definitely helps.

    Florent Amodio: Oh, did Morosov misread this season or what? Right off the bat, we have an atrocious costume. Then comes that ridiculous take on “Summertime” (“Summertime” without Louis Armstrong’s sonorous trumpet is like Canadian winter with no snow. Doesn’t logically compute). The French federation and Stannick Jeannette need to stage an intervention stat – the choreography is bland, the interpretation mediocre and the ego overwhelming.

    Kevin Reynolds: Seriously, what is up with his hair? Even though he’s made some improvement in his presentation and choreography, his hair seriously makes me hope that they dock PCS points for sartorial reasons. That stated, his skate here suggests he won’t give up that second slot without a fight.

    Nobunari Oda: Nope, sorry, the Japanese field is too deep for you to think you can get away with this type of skate. Yes, the piano playing spread eagle into the 3A is a beautiful moment and you should be applauded for that choreographic gem. But when his jumps are this underwhelming, he really has nothing to fall back on.

    Alexander Majorov: Kudos to him for staying into his program after the fall, and lovely combination. But I had largely checked out. Austin Powers was boring five minutes after it came out and I don’t want a reminder. Definitely potential here, though.

    Chafik Besseghier: Okay, so that landing on the quad was just cool. Yeah it was an error, but I actually thought it was very neat and made a cool on ice picture. Bonus points for that. Boring choice of music, though, even with his obvious attack. It’s interesting to suppose – if Brian Joubert retires at the end of the season (or before then) Chafik is probably next in line (after Amodio).

    Romain Ponsart: I.... liked it. Quite a bit, actually. He’s the guy I’m rooting for at French Nationals.

  12. #132
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    Interesting how some people always find somebody else better than Patrick in every competition. If only one of them would reward such hope for real for once. Or at least not become the next one to self destruct. *Knocks on wood as I hate for Nan to be jinxed!*

    I also appreciate the creativity of assiging emotions to Patrick so authoritatively, which always gets a chorus going so it may become a fact that he is, say, "bored" and "desperate"! Somehow "desparate" doesn't jive well with winning nor the oft claimed cockiness that comes with being the judges' pet.

    Watching the video, I feel Patrick was probably not at the best of health today as I have never seen him so tired after one of his energetic LP, let alone a SP. I hope he rebounds by tomorrow.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by ILoveFigures View Post
    When people starts complaining about his hair, his personality, his multiple fall cushion (there is no such thing), then yes, that's bashing.

    It all started with a mere mention of needing a haircut or getting hair combed. Then some people became so defensive and now even characterized it as "bashing". Well, then let me unleash my bashing talent: Coming to a competition with unkempt hair shows lack of professionalism, which is disrespectful to the audience, the judges and other competitors. "I don't care what others think," said the unkempt hair. And what does that attitude speak? In a class of his own above all others and not governed by conventional standard?

    People "bashed" (based on your definition) Kevin Reynolds in defense of Chan. Why didn't you whine about it? Was there any double-standard, self-serving righteousness at work?

    I heard an EuroSport commentator saying that he felt Chan's high score was given somewhat based on who he was, not on how he skated. The professional opinion made me suspect that there might indeed be such thing as "cushion", or at least I know there is a voice out there from a skating expert thinking Chan did not deserve what he got.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    I heard an EuroSport commentator saying that he felt Chan's high score was given somewhat based on who he was, not on how he skated. The professional opinion made me suspect that there might indeed be such thing as "cushion", or at least I know there is a voice out there from a skating expert thinking Chan did not deserve what he got.
    It must be great to find one expert comment that can be used suitably. Damn all other professional opinions.

  15. #135
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Every men's thread turns into an argument about Patrick-bashing. It's boring! Why can't people accept that there are differences of opinion? You will never, ever, ever convert the whole forum to Patrick-love by fighting them. That said, there is tons of respect for him here, but all some people hear is bashing.

    I really like the way IP just expressed it. His skating is admirable, a thing of beauty, wonderful - but not always equally great, and he's not the only exciting skater out there.

    Sorry to preach, really. *Zips lip on the subject.*

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