Page 14 of 19 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 LastLast
Results 196 to 210 of 272

Thread: Men's Free Skate, Sat. 11/19 at 7:30 am EST

  1. #196
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,008
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I sometimes appreciate Chan's flawed performance more on replay than live because his errors tend to be perceived in exageration by fans taken back by unexpected mistakes and by distractors ready to magnify them.
    So true! It took me three times rewatching his TEB LP before I reached my conclusion which I have posted in response to Pogue's first post regarding this performance.

  2. #197
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Left field
    Posts
    3,407
    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Different rules/requirements at the time, different step sequences. But the quality is still evident even today. Lambiel's Poeta step sequence, in my mind, is one of the most memorable step sequences ever. Takahashi's step sequence in in his Phantom sent the audience in near-complete hysterics when he finished--I watched it live on TV in 2007 and I still remember how it sent chills up my spine.

    Also, I never said the impact of Chan's 2011 Worlds win was re-writing history. He skated magnificently and deserved the world title by a country mile; I'm sure it pushed many skaters to up their level of skating. My original objection was to your statement "Before Chan, it was either quads or footwork," which, as I pointed out, was inaccurate given what Lambiel and Takahashi had accomplished long before Chan added the quad to his repertoire of elements.
    Poeta was a magnificent program, and while Stephane never skated it completely mistake-free, I kind of use it to this day as a measuring stick for skaters' scores - that got higher PCS than Poeta? Better IN?

    As for quads and footwork, AFAIK the first skater to have level 4 footwork and a 4-3 in the same program was Plushenko. The next one, I believe, was... Evan Lysacek. It's now easier to get level 4 on step sequences than it was in the past; if I'm not mistaken, there were level 4s given on the JGP, and Viktoria Helgesson got one at TEB this weekend, and she's not exactly renowned for her footwork, is she?

    I would be curious to see if SF feels there is any area in which any skater is superior to Patrick Chan (not including spirals, which he doesn't do).

  3. #198
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,198
    Yeah, it was definitely more difficult to get a level 4 step sequence back in the day, much more so than it was now. I think Caro Kostner was the first lady to get a level 4 step sequence in around...2007, was it? It was a pretty significant thing when it happened.

    PCS marking was also very different too, and quite wonky in the first few years of CoP. But for awhile, 7s were absolutely top-shelf marks reserved for the top skaters. Getting 8s and 9s was literally unimaginable, lol. It seems crazy today that Lambiel's Poeta only received 7s in 2007, but if Lambiel, as the reigning world champion, had skated Poeta the way he did in Tokyo Worlds at the Vancouver Olympics, he obviously would have received high 8s and 9s in the context of more contemporary scoring practices.

  4. #199
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I would be curious to see if SF feels there is any area in which any skater is superior to Patrick Chan (not including spirals, which he doesn't do).
    Off the top of my head, Lambiel's spins, Browning's performance, versatility, and comedic talents (but then Patrick hasn't had much time to build repertoire or artistry yet), Swayer's flexibility, Takahashi's soulfulness and flamboyance, various skaters' quads other than 4T, Beacom's creativity and plain craziness, etc.

  5. #200
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    So true! It took me three times rewatching his TEB LP before I reached my conclusion which I have posted in response to Pogue's first post regarding this performance.
    The thing is that with Chan's performance, unless it's flawless or nearly so in which case it is breath-takingly amazing, there is always an immediate and heated focus on the mistakes and no attention is paid to the rest of the program and the total performance. The impression is then formed that it is mistake-ridden and a mess, which is far from the truth. On re-viewing, it is often a relief to realize that it is not quite that bad, and then the appriciation can begin. His programs are so rich and full of beautiful moments and amazing manuevers that even with a few errors, there is still so much left to appreciate and enjoy. I guess the scoring reflects this fact too. He has so much that he can afford to lose some. When he is on, likely later in the season, then the marks go through the roof.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 11-21-2011 at 02:12 AM.

  6. #201
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,198
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    They had not been able to do both well in the same program. It wasn't necessary then. Some one, like Joubert, would win with quads and some, like Buttle, would win with skating.
    Ok, I felt I should address this point with more clarification.

    It was important even back then to have both quads and footwork (....or actual, well-choreographed programs), particularly if you look at the larger context of Joubert and Buttle's world titles.

    Joubert actually lost the long program in 2007 Worlds to both Lambiel and Takahashi. And it wasn't by razor-thin margins either--Takahashi had won the LP by about 6 points. The reason why Joubert won the gold overall was because Lambiel and Takahashi both botched their short programs, especially Lambiel, who skated dreadfully in terms of jumps. Joubert skated cleanly in the SP and decently enough in the LP and was thus able to hang onto his lead overall. If Takahashi and Lambiel didn't screw up in the short, they definitely would have beat Joubert soundly. It's also interesting that neither Lambiel or Takahashi were completely perfect in their LPs as well, but they still beat Joubert nonetheless (though admittedly, Joubert had watered down his LP somewhat). But 2006 Worlds, in my opinion, had already established the writing on the wall for Joubert vs. Lambiel--though both had quads, the judges were going to go for the more complete skater if they both skated well: Lambiel. In the LP, Joubert skated perfectly, while Lambiel had no triple axel and two-footed a jump--yet Lambiel still won.

    As for Buttle's world title, it definitely wasn't clear during that season that a quadless man could even win the world title. Lambiel had been skating quite sloppily all season (but still with quads) but the judges had been scoring him quite generously nonetheless (e.g. 2007 GPF). Takahashi, meanwhile, was coming to Worlds after the breaking the world record at the 2008 4CC with 2 quads in his LP, completely thrashing silver medallist Buttle (and bronze medallist Lysacek, for that matter) there by literally 30 points. However, both Takahashi and Lambiel melted down in the LP at 2008 Worlds (additionally, Takahashi also Zayaked himself out of contention) and Buttle had been able to skate cleanly and take advantage. However, if you look at the way Takahashi and Lambiel were being scored that season, it was clear that Buttle would not have won the world title if Lambiel and Takahashi had been anywhere near decent in Goteborg.

    Of course, coulda, woulda, shoulda. Joubert and Buttle deserved their world titles given what transpired, but it was Takahashi and Lambiel's lack of consistency that smoothed the way. If you really wanted to control your own destiny and win the gold back then, you would have showed up with both quads and footwork, like now. All things considered, it was clear that Takahashi and Lambiel were the judges' favourites and were going to win if they skated anywhere near decently (or in Lambiel's case at the 2007 GPF, even if he wasn't so decent)....but they, of course, didn't always.

    What really changed the playing field were the events of fall 2008, when Takahashi severely injured himself and had to sit out for an entire season, while Lambiel abruptly retired after leaving Peter Grutter. After the two main guys with both quads and footwork were out of the picture...well, imagine how the playing field would look like now if both Chan and Takahashi (or Kozuka, I guess) suddenly retired.
    Last edited by evangeline; 11-21-2011 at 02:41 AM.

  7. #202
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Left field
    Posts
    3,407
    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Yeah, it was definitely more difficult to get a level 4 step sequence back in the day, much more so than it was now. I think Caro Kostner was the first lady to get a level 4 step sequence in around...2007, was it? It was a pretty significant thing when it happened.

    PCS marking was also very different too, and quite wonky in the first few years of CoP. But for awhile, 7s were absolutely top-shelf marks reserved for the top skaters. Getting 8s and 9s was literally unimaginable, lol. It seems crazy today that Lambiel's Poeta only received 7s in 2007, but if Lambiel, as the reigning world champion, had skated Poeta the way he did in Tokyo Worlds at the Vancouver Olympics, he obviously would have received high 8s and 9s in the context of more contemporary scoring practices.
    Carolina was the first lady to get level 4 - I think it was at 2007 NHK, and the program would have been her fabulous Damky Trio LP.

    I think you're right about Poeta.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Off the top of my head, Lambiel's spins, Browning's performance, versatility, and comedic talents (but then Patrick hasn't had much time to build repertoire or artistry yet), Swayer's flexibility, Takahashi's soulfulness and flamboyance, various skaters' quads other than 4T, Beacom's creativity and plain craziness, etc.
    Thanks for sharing! I think it's probably also safe to add Jonathan Cassar's spread eagles, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Ok, I felt I should address this point with more clarification.

    It was important even back then to have both quads and footwork (....or actual, well-choreographed programs), particularly if you look at the larger context of Joubert and Buttle's world titles.

    Joubert actually lost the long program in 2007 Worlds to both Lambiel and Takahashi. And it wasn't by razor-thin margins either--Takahashi had won the LP by about 6 points. The reason why Joubert won the gold overall was because Lambiel and Takahashi both botched their short programs, especially Lambiel, who skated dreadfully in terms of jumps. Joubert skated cleanly in the SP and decently enough in the LP and was thus able to hang onto his lead overall. If Takahashi and Lambiel didn't screw up in the short, they definitely would have beat Joubert soundly. It's also interesting that neither Lambiel or Takahashi were completely perfect in their LPs as well, but they still beat Joubert nonetheless (though admittedly, Joubert had watered down his LP somewhat). But 2006 Worlds, in my opinion, had already established the writing on the wall for Joubert vs. Lambiel--though both had quads, the judges were going to go for the more complete skater if they both skated well: Lambiel. In the LP, Joubert skated perfectly, while Lambiel had no triple axel and two-footed a jump--yet Lambiel still won.

    Of course, coulda, woulda, shoulda. Joubert and Buttle deserved their world titles given what transpired, but it was Takahashi and Lambiel's lack of consistency that smoothed the way. If you really wanted to control your own destiny and win the gold back then, you would have showed up with both quads and footwork, like now. All things considered, it was clear that Takahashi and Lambiel were the judges' favourites and were going to win if they skated anywhere near decently (or in Lambiel's case at the 2007 GPF, even if he wasn't so decent)....but they, of course, didn't always.

    What really changed the playing field were the events of fall 2008, when Takahashi severely injured himself and had to sit out for an entire season, while Lambiel abruptly retired after leaving Peter Grutter. After the two main guys with both quads and footwork were out of the picture...well, imagine how the playing field would look like now if both Chan and Takahashi (or Kozuka, I guess) suddenly retired.
    What won 2006 Worlds for Lambiel was the QR. Under the current format, Joubert's score out of the SP would have been high enough to overcome Stephane's LP margin - as happened in 2007.

    Dai's injury was a game changer for sure; a torn ACL is about as serious as it gets. He'll probably never be the skater he was technically, but he compensates for that in other ways. And Buttle's win was a the blueprint for how to win without a quad, so also a really important event. 2008 Worlds had all sorts of unexpected outcomes: Dai Zayaking away a medal, Tomas Verner's Hidden Czech skate, KvdP getting a small medal, Johnny winning his only medal, Stephane off the podium after three straight medals... lots of surprises for sure.

    I just want to add, because I know some people were underwhelmed by Joubert's 2007 Worlds LP and disappointed to have a World Champion who was only third in the LP, that Joubert had to make adjustments to the program because he was returning from an injury. In February of that year, he spiked a blade into his foot on a 3Lz attempted and sustained tendon (and possibly ligament?) damage - I think it required surgery, he was off the ice for a while, and couldn't even train lutzes and flips until right before Worlds. He sustained a more serious version of that injury in November 2009, and it completely derailed his Olympic season. (Kurt Browning tweeted that the same thing had happened to him three times - ouch!) Anyway, considering Joubert's occasional headcase tendencies, I'm still amazed that he was able to pull off 2007 Worlds. The pressure, coming in undefeated on the season and knowing that he was not 100% physically, must have been crushing. You can kind of see it when he skates off the ice after the LP - he doesn't look elated, he looks relieved. No singles skater has gone undefeated in a season since then.

    Joubert never got a level 4 on footwork (his goal seems to be to get level 3) but AFAIK he scored the highest GOE ever given for a quad in international competition, which is pretty cool. Still, I think it's unfair to characterize him as someone who cares only about the jumps; he's stated otherwise multiple times, and has put a lot of work into other areas of his skating. It's one thing to argue that those things are not his forte, but he's not the one-dimensional skater some suggest.
    Last edited by Buttercup; 11-21-2011 at 03:10 AM.

  8. #203
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,198
    Ah, the QR at 2006 Worlds helped, but I think it was pretty telling that Lambiel won the LP nonetheless in Calgary, even if it was by a thin margin over Joubert. Wasn't there some angst about the 2006 Olympic silver medalist and World Champion not being able to land a triple axel properly?

    Yeah, in retrospect, 2008 Worlds for men was such a bizarre event. If I recall correctly, almost everyone predicted that Takahashi would win that year. He had the quads, the programs (Cyber Swan!!), the PCS, the footwork, the judges' love, good performances all season....his mistakes and Zayaking came completely out of nowhere. I'm sure many fans' fantasy picks were completely ruined by that. Lambiel, on the other hand...I guess it wasn't entirely surprising that he melted down, given his performances all season. But the degree to which he melted down was kind of surprising. And Tomas' skate! Still painful to watch, especially since he did so well in the short and was the reigning European Champion. I was happy for Buttle, but I definitely had mixed feelings about the whole thing.....

    I wasn't really a fan of Joubert's LP in 2007, but his Bond SP was loads of fun and definitely deserved to have a big lead for sure. When Joubert is on, he really does have great charisma and command over the ice and I can understand why the judges were willing to give him good PCS. I have no complaints about Joubert winning worlds in 2007, even with a third-place LP--Lambiel and Takahashi, though great in the long, did themselves in during the SP.
    Last edited by evangeline; 11-21-2011 at 03:32 AM.

  9. #204
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,968
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    What won 2006 Worlds for Lambiel was the QR. Under the current format, Joubert's score out of the SP would have been high enough to overcome Stephane's LP margin - as happened in 2007.
    Lambiel's 3Axel in the LP was downgraded to a double, whereas with the current rules Lambiel would have received 6 points base value for the slight underrotation on that 3Axel (rather than 3.3 points). So he wins without the QR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Poeta was a magnificent program, and while Stephane never skated it completely mistake-free, I kind of use it to this day as a measuring stick for skaters' scores - that got higher PCS than Poeta? Better IN?
    Specifically his 2007 Worlds LP performance of that program. For me, Lambiel deserved the highest PCS ever in a male CoP program there.

    I actually kind of think he even deserved the Silver medal over Joubert (Takahashi clearly deserved Gold overall for me), despite the big jump mistakes in the SP. It was that superior of a performance and one of the most difficult ever technically.
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 11-21-2011 at 05:25 AM.

  10. #205
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    3,560
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    According to Morozov's interview in Russia, Oda came to him during the Olympics in tears because his girlfriend had just informed him of her pregnancy. He didn't know how to break it to his mother who didn't even know of her.
    I think it was very inconsiderate of the girl friend to inform about the pregnancy during the Olympics. She should have waited until the freeskate was over.

  11. #206
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,235
    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    And I think that's a problem that needs to be addressed as well. Errors that interrupt the flow are significant to casual viewers like me.
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    This arguement is usually aimed at Chan. He's always so fast at getting back up that the flow is usually not interrupted, just the jump itself. A fall in the step sequence of course has more impact, but it's duely deducted as in the TEB performance.
    We are discussing whether the penalty for errors is appropriate or not under the current scoring system, yet your response is "It's duly deducted." It's like when debating the appropriateness of death penalty, one argues "He has received due punishment under the law." That's a funny logic, isn't it? We are debating the law (rules), not the judging.

    The argument does not aim at Chan. It is Chan himself who made too many mistakes. Long before Chan there was another skater putting herself under the spotlight. It was Carolina Kostner. Of course, she has improved somewhat and not made too many glaring errors for a while, and therefore there has not been many complaints about her for a while. My point is: Chan is a great skater but the world does not rotate around him. Not everything is for Chan, against Chan, or about Chan in particular.

    "A fall in the step sequence of course has more impact"--yet that is not reflected in the current scoring system. Take Chan's fall in his CiSt3 as an example: The mandatory deduction (-1) plus the negative GOE (-1.40) = -2.40. After taking the base value 3.30 into consideration, he still pocketed almost a whole point with that messy, interrupting mistake. He fell at 1:40 and came back at 1:44 and there was a passing moment at 1:51 his balance did not look secure to my untrained eye and I thought he was going to fall (of course he didn't). I would characterize it as messy and interrupting. There is not much of a risk falling on a footwork, is there?

    I have a question: Why is "level" designed as such that a person can miss 4 seconds of skating and still receive the same level of difficulty?
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 11-21-2011 at 07:53 AM.

  12. #207
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,198
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post

    Specifically his 2007 Worlds LP performance of that program. For me, Lambiel deserved the highest PCS ever in a male CoP program there.

    I actually kind of think he even deserved the Silver medal over Joubert (Takahashi clearly deserved Gold overall for me), despite the big jump mistakes in the SP. It was that superior of a performance and one of the most difficult ever technically.
    I agree about the Poeta PCS thing; the 2007 Worlds version, in my mind, is one of the greatest performances in the history of CoP. The passion, the vigor, and the sheer artistic abandon Lambiel displayed was astounding to watch. Sublime choreography too. Plus, he also managed to land a good 3A and a 4T-2T-2T, which is just the cherry on top of the whole thing.

    Not sure about the silver medal though....Lambiel deserves credit for ditching that weird yodelling SP in favour of Blood Diamond, but falling on the 3A and having only a 3T-2T combo is kind of embarrassing for a senior male skater of Lambiel's calibre. Joubert deserved the big lead from the SP.

  13. #208
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,198
    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post

    The argument does not aim at Chan. It is Chan himself who made too mistakes. Long before Chan there was another skater putting herself under the spotlight. It was Carolina Kostner. Of course, she has improved somewhat and not made too many glaring errors for a while, and therefore there has not been many complaints about her for a while. My point is: Chan is a great skater but the world does not rotate around him. Not everything is for Chan, against Chan, or about Chan in particular.
    Ack, the 2008 Carolina Kostner fan war! Poor Caro really took a beating on these boards after 2008 Worlds, as did many people's faith in the holy tenets of CoP.

    Interesting parallel you drew there, but I have to admit, it fits. The reaction after Chan's win at, say, Skate Canada last year really was rather reminiscent of Kostner's silver at Worlds in 2008. Similar fan outrage and similar debates about CoP. The more things change, the more they stay the same, I guess.

  14. #209
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Left field
    Posts
    3,407
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Lambiel's 3Axel in the LP was downgraded to a double, whereas with the current rules Lambiel would have received 6 points base value for the slight underrotation on that 3Axel (rather than 3.3 points). So he wins without the QR.
    I specifically referred to the format, not the scoring, because the 2006 season was the last with a QR that counted toward the total score. Obviously old performances would have scored differently under current standards.

    In 2007, Joubert's LP had no elements with a negative GOE. His BV wasn't very high - partly because of spin levels - but it wasn't embarrassingly low, and he won with a good skate, not a messy performance. As Evangeline noted, he skated a great SP, with a 4-3, high levels on spins and steps, and only a minor mistake, and he was totally selling it. Leaving aside Stephane's SP performance, Dai had no quad, a UR call, and lower spin levels than Joubert. I'd say that Brian deserved his lead, and certainly did enough to win: it was classic CoP, go with a layout you can skate well and get good GOEs.

    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I agree about the Poeta PCS thing; the 2007 Worlds version, in my mind, is one of the greatest performances in the history of CoP. The passion, the vigor, and the sheer artistic abandon Lambiel displayed was astounding to watch. Sublime choreography too. Plus, he also managed to land a good 3A and a 4T-2T-2T, which is just the cherry on top of the whole thing.

    Not sure about the silver medal though....Lambiel deserves credit for ditching that weird yodelling SP in favour of Blood Diamond, but falling on the 3A and having only a 3T-2T combo is kind of embarrassing for a senior male skater of Lambiel's calibre. Joubert deserved the big lead from the SP.
    That's why it's my PCS benchmark... I also liked the idea of Blood Diamond, and would have enjoyed seeing it performed at a higher standard.

    I'll take Carolina over Patrick any day, but there are similarities in the way their skating and results are perceived. Would that Nichol gave Patrick interesting programs like she does for Caro.
    Last edited by Buttercup; 11-21-2011 at 06:14 AM.

  15. #210
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    263
    Back from Paris late last night.

    Although Men's event was a disappointing affair after all, it was still absolute joy to watch figure skating live.

    Nan Song was a hero of the event for me with a very committed performance with no obvious mistakes, and he saved my day. I saw him in Paris last year and his improvement since was astonishing. Jr World medallists of 2010 are all coming along nicely

    Having said that, Patrick was still head and shoulders above the others in the competition in all departments. It was as if he had skated on different ice from the others. If Nan Song had won simply because he did not fall, I think it would have been scandalous and would have made me doubt what 'figure skating' would stand for.

    The audience support for Oda was heart-warming. It made me well up.
    Last edited by mot; 11-21-2011 at 08:31 AM. Reason: It was not 2009, but 2010 that Nan Song, Hanyu, Gachinski won the medals! - so the error has been corrected.

Page 14 of 19 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •